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Old 08-05-2010, 07:40 PM   #126
CardSharpCook
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD View Post
Once again, right and fair are subjective.

Is it ok to pay a 1,000% markup for vitamins, they are certainly good for us..... Why does that make any difference.

If you feel that strongly about it, don't pay to poison yourself....
you can charge $12 for a gallon of milk, $10 for a loaf of bread, or $20 for a gallon of gas and people will still pay it. That doesn't make it fair. What you have here is a near monopoly situation in most casinos where they are the only business for 300 miles that offers this service. What they offer isn't fair, but people will still pay bc they want to gamboooooool.

Even when you have a supply/demand naturally fixed price, it doesn't mean that price will be "fair". Imagine a post-apocalyptic world in which one man has access to Swanson's 100-acre underground soup warehouse. If he's the only food in town, he can charge $100 for a can of soup. It'll be a naturally fixed S/D price point. But still not fair.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:04 PM   #127
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by borderline View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but why is the staff getting a cut out of the "dealer add-on"? Especially as big as a cut as 30-35%? How hard is it to run a tournament? Do you feel that the staff is half as important otherwise? How many staff members are there and how many dealers are there?
Id say dealers outnumber staff by at least 10-1 in most cases. The fact that the staff is getting over 1/3 of a dealer appreciation chip bonus without saying so upfront seems a bit shady.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:17 AM   #128
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by Matt Savage View Post
What we have learned from this thread

1. TD's need to make sure that %'s, bonus chips, entry fees are properly written on receipts, structure sheets, and payout areas.

2. Though it it sometimes called a dealer add-on it is often going to both the dealers and the staff.

3. Structures are for the most part much better than they were 5 years ago.

4. Deep Stack tournaments cost more money to staff demand more dealer downs.

5. Though highly unlikely it would be nice if casinos would help subsidize dealers even though the players are the ones demanding longer structures.

/Thread
wow ,
Great response Matt. I agree with all he said...and Chainsaw..for the record...we DO PUT THE DEALER ADD_ON ON EVERY STRUCTURE SHEET AND SCHEDULE OF EVENTS.....
And for the record...you...oops . cant tell you how i really feel about you, I am too nice of a guy.


Also get it straight... we split 70 to dealers on everything and 30 to staff.
(used to be 65% - 30%) I changed it..didnt think it was right %

Also understand, I was personally given a $10,000 tip from wsop winner. I dropped it in toke box. 7,000 of my personal tip went to dealers. and of the $3,000 that was left , i got $300. Not a bad days work but not $10,000 where the player was giving it to me.

I am trying to answer most questions once in one thread...

Yes grand sierra has less than average blind structures.... but CHAINSAW LISTEN UP AND RESPOND TO THIS WILL YOU...

last year Grand sierra ADDED OVER $160,000 to prize pools in added money!!!!!
Also they give you 2% cash back on your buy-ins in comps...
(Maybe we should get you to sign us a receipt)
$2 per hour of Live play.
They offer $30 hotel rooms...

And to answer another question...Yes the Pay-out disbursement form was MY IDEA !!!! when I first got in this business, Certain Tournament Directors would steal all the tokes. I have you sign it to let the players know exactly how much money was left. Keeps all parties honest.

Basically do me a favor Chainsaw... Dont like the fees...don't come... I CLEARLY show the fees.

At grand Sierra it is definitely an overlay with all the added money... but since you only want to ***** about the fees....I wanted everyone to know, I do understand about fees. Its why we add the money.

Also, I am the one that asked WSOP to give the $1,000,000 Champions tournament. Add that overlay, and stop bitching about that too.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:19 AM   #129
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

and boom goes the dynamite.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:24 AM   #130
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
Id say dealers outnumber staff by at least 10-1 in most cases. The fact that the staff is getting over 1/3 of a dealer appreciation chip bonus without saying so upfront seems a bit shady.
My dealers do not have to work for me. They also know up front the percentages. I believe 98% of my dealers are very happy with the way I treat them. We are one big, happy family. We are going on a poker cruise, and going to have the time of our life!!! Please stay in LA around Matts Tournaments. Please do not ask me for anything Chainsaw, no more levels, added chips or a comp.......
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:15 AM   #131
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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My dealers do not have to work for me. They also know up front the percentages. I believe 98% of my dealers are very happy with the way I treat them. We are one big, happy family. We are going on a poker cruise, and going to have the time of our life!!! Please stay in LA around Matts Tournaments. Please do not ask me for anything Chainsaw, no more levels, added chips or a comp.......
ok ... im a lil calmer now.... chainsaw, you can go our cruise... dealer price is $499.... chainsaw you can come for 1499. lol j/k peace with you bud....just wanted you to know all the facts. As always , I stand up for the dealers and my staff. Also stand up for the players. All this and try to make the casinos happy. ...and make a living. We are all in this for the same reason from me to you too dealers to casinos...make money and we are all Greedy!!! have a great day all...gotta go shoot my future son n law...daughter getting married in 15 hours.
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:27 AM   #132
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

Jimmy is into the moonshine just when I thought the thread was over!

Now /Thread
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:40 AM   #133
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Sommerfeld View Post
wow ,
Great response Matt. I agree with all he said...and Chainsaw..for the record...we DO PUT THE DEALER ADD_ON ON EVERY STRUCTURE SHEET AND SCHEDULE OF EVENTS.....
And for the record...you...oops . cant tell you how i really feel about you, I am too nice of a guy.


Also get it straight... we split 70 to dealers on everything and 30 to staff.
(used to be 65% - 30%) I changed it..didnt think it was right %

Also understand, I was personally given a $10,000 tip from wsop winner. I dropped it in toke box. 7,000 of my personal tip went to dealers. and of the $3,000 that was left , i got $300. Not a bad days work but not $10,000 where the player was giving it to me.

I am trying to answer most questions once in one thread...

Yes grand sierra has less than average blind structures.... but CHAINSAW LISTEN UP AND RESPOND TO THIS WILL YOU...

last year Grand sierra ADDED OVER $160,000 to prize pools in added money!!!!!
Also they give you 2% cash back on your buy-ins in comps...
(Maybe we should get you to sign us a receipt)
$2 per hour of Live play.
They offer $30 hotel rooms...

And to answer another question...Yes the Pay-out disbursement form was MY IDEA !!!! when I first got in this business, Certain Tournament Directors would steal all the tokes. I have you sign it to let the players know exactly how much money was left. Keeps all parties honest.

Basically do me a favor Chainsaw... Dont like the fees...don't come... I CLEARLY show the fees.

At grand Sierra it is definitely an overlay with all the added money... but since you only want to ***** about the fees....I wanted everyone to know, I do understand about fees. Its why we add the money.

Also, I am the one that asked WSOP to give the $1,000,000 Champions tournament. Add that overlay, and stop bitching about that too.
Jimmy, One thing I have always liked about you is that you are one of the few TDs who take criticism, and actually make changes for the better. I know you have done this based on my suggestions in the past, and hope you will do so in the future.

I dont mind paying fees epecially in low limit events because I understand these events cost more money to run. But if you are going to charge a fee, you cant have it both ways. 30 min level events with skipped levels do nothing to support the fact that players are getting any value for the added fees. (I know these structures were not your doing).

None of the players like the Payout sheet signing idea. How about having a locked tip box that only the TD can access. The player puts the tip money in there and everyone os happy. It is opened by the TD and one or 2 staff there to observe. You dont have to police it, and players are not put under undue pressure when getting paid out.

Make the buyins clearer to the average player. The announcement for $120 supers or 7 pm tourneys could just as easily be $125; with the entire amount paid up front at registration, stated on the receipt, and not collected in cash at the table after players have bought in.

The structures at GSR were abysmal. The main event was a 45 min level 1K with skipped levels. I havent seen that in the longest time. The 4pm mixed game events were over by 11pm and players were forced to make deals with 4 bet avg final tables. I know that these werent your structures and I spoke to Charles about this. He seemed open to adding a few levels the next event.

I noticed alot of the same faces there for most of the event. I really dont think people want to be rushed through a tourney whether it be 200 or 500 in 5 or 6 hours. They dont mind playing a longer time, or even coming back for a second day if needed. Since we are paying extra fees for dealers and staff is it too much to ask for a few more levels at GSR or even 40 minute rounds on the prelims? Alot of players were frustrated with the bad mixed event structure and didnt play after the first few.


Where was the added money at GSR this year? The $10,000 freeroll had too many loopholes for me to navigate. I went there to support you and your staff regardless of added money or not.

The $2 hour comps and $30 rooms really dont affect me, but I agree its a nice perk for low limit gamblers.

I think the $1 million WSOPC freeroll idea is a great one and I hope you run the structures you showed me. I posted on twitter that I really liked your circuit structures and praised you for that.

check www.twitter.com/allenkessler scroll down to about a week ago and youll see it.

I got alot of good reponses to those posts , and there is a real excitement about the upcoming circuit schedule.

I really do like you and your staff; regardless of what you may think. but sometimes it takes posts like this to affect change.

Im really looking forward to the upcoming circuit schedule where you personally have more input on what is taking place. The new structures, especially the main events look great.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:40 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Sommerfeld View Post
ok ... im a lil calmer now.... chainsaw, you can go our cruise... dealer price is $499.... chainsaw you can come for 1499. lol j/k peace with you bud....just wanted you to know all the facts. As always , I stand up for the dealers and my staff. Also stand up for the players. All this and try to make the casinos happy. ...and make a living. We are all in this for the same reason from me to you too dealers to casinos...make money and we are all Greedy!!! have a great day all...gotta go shoot my future son n law...daughter getting married in 15 hours.
Congrats to your daughter, I wish her all the best.
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:29 PM   #135
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and boom goes the dynamite.
I hope he's alright. .
.
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:43 PM   #136
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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I hope he's alright. .
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoidh-VmSw
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:51 PM   #137
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by Thread_Saboteur View Post
In most large tournament series held around the country, every dollar you tip, voluntarily or forcibly, gets broken up in the following way:
$0.35 to the TD and floormen;
$0.65 to the dealers.
I thought this was common knowledge
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:07 PM   #138
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD View Post
What if they are disclosed on the schedule of events, a structure sheet, and a sign at the registration desk that notifies each player of the dealer fee?
We'd still *****. We're poker players for God's sake.
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:49 PM   #139
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Sommerfeld View Post
Also they give you 2% cash back on your buy-ins in comps...
last time (and that will be the last) I went there my bro got kicked out of the cafe (he was a bit of a jackass, but the point remains) cause he ordered the "comp special" which had to be paid in part with comps or it cost like twice as much. turns out he had zero comp dollars even after ~$2k in tournament buy ins and the floorman made him his reward card while he was playing a live game. interesting....
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:04 PM   #140
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Oddly enough, those poor casino owners (in most cases) are stockholders. Most casino companies are publicly traded stocks....
Poor stockholders...

Can anyone, with relevant knowledge, comment on whether poker tournaments are good for casinos, and to what degree.
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Old 08-08-2010, 06:13 PM   #141
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by CardSharpCook View Post
you can charge $12 for a gallon of milk, $10 for a loaf of bread, or $20 for a gallon of gas and people will still pay it. That doesn't make it fair. What you have here is a near monopoly situation in most casinos where they are the only business for 300 miles that offers this service. What they offer isn't fair, but people will still pay bc they want to gamboooooool.

Even when you have a supply/demand naturally fixed price, it doesn't mean that price will be "fair". Imagine a post-apocalyptic world in which one man has access to Swanson's 100-acre underground soup warehouse. If he's the only food in town, he can charge $100 for a can of soup. It'll be a naturally fixed S/D price point. But still not fair.
I think this is a very relevant point itt.

Also, while I respect JGrooms a lot since I have spent much time in Biloxi, I don't like a lot of what he posted here. I do admire his stones for even posting here at all much less to say what he did. Johnny obv states facts though.

However, your purse analogy is meh. Ppl can choose to play at certain casinos over others like woman choose their purses. What we are paying for is what separates the two. The purse is bought for its brand name. Your casino isn't selling its brand at markup. Because no one would give a sht whether they play at the Rio, Venetian, Beau, or Isle as long as theres FAIR a prize pool and a FAIR poker game. (Correct me if I'm mistaken. Thats just my take.)

The reality of the situation is that we aren't buying purses and we aren't playing fair poker games.

The problem presented is that, while a dealers job is never easy, its also not something casinos are not allocating appropriate funds for. It is instead placed upon the players to pay extra, play for less, and often play less poker than what is felt to be "our moneys worth". Our only choice is to not play or play under aforesaid conditions. Its not fair and life rarely is but if casinos care about poker players playing in their casinos one would imagine something would change.

edit/ I realize my rant, along w/chainsaw's endless string of rants, and every other rant itt will never change anything. feels good to type it out though. : )
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:39 PM   #142
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

Its similar to restaurants paying waiters and waitresses embarrassing wages and expecting customers to pay the difference.

Only in that case what u tip the waiter actually goes to them.
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:59 PM   #143
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Its similar to restaurants paying waiters and waitresses embarrassing wages and expecting customers to pay the difference.

Only in that case what u tip the waiter actually goes to them.
except part gets tipped out to the bar too
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:16 AM   #144
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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except part gets tipped out to the bar too
Don't post much but as a waiter for more than a decade in a wide variety of places I have to say this is a very bad comparison and I would hope chainsaw checks into before he blindly tips a waiter thinking it goes to him.

There are places you can work as a waiter and tip out the bartender, busboy, hosts, dishwashers, Food runners and even managers. Varies everywhere you go from place to place but its a very rare place indeed that the waiter keeps 100% of the tips. Next time you go to PF changs ask your server for a breakdown of where your tips go.
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:25 AM   #145
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

if you have to tip a manager, you are doing it wrong.
starbucks got hella sued for doing that, as managers are on salary and dont get tips.
(this discussion is way more interesting than the chip one which is tiring)
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:35 AM   #146
Jimmy Sommerfeld
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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last time (and that will be the last) I went there my bro got kicked out of the cafe (he was a bit of a jackass, but the point remains) cause he ordered the "comp special" which had to be paid in part with comps or it cost like twice as much. turns out he had zero comp dollars even after ~$2k in tournament buy ins and the floorman made him his reward card while he was playing a live game. interesting....
I have checked many times and I know for sure the tournament buy-in registers on your card.
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:36 AM   #147
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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I thought this was common knowledge
I feel as if im gettin cheated here...we cut it 70/30...geez i gotta rethink this now.
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:43 AM   #148
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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I have checked many times and I know for sure the tournament buy-in registers on your card.
so for every wsop/wsopc event i play i should get credit on my total rewards card for having spend $x on that tournament? cuz it doesn't do that for me.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:37 AM   #149
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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so for every wsop/wsopc event i play i should get credit on my total rewards card for having spend $x on that tournament? cuz it doesn't do that for me.
They are discussing the Grand Sierra events Jon. @ Harrahs they give you a coupon for $10 off your next big tent purchase, remember? Did you not get your coupon?
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:16 AM   #150
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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I have checked many times and I know for sure the tournament buy-in registers on your card.
ok, pretty sure I was there and positive I'm not going back so whatever...
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