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Old 08-02-2010, 08:39 PM   #76
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

Having worked on the circuit at Jimmy Sommerfeld's events I can tell you the issue with the dealer add-ons at the GSR. Namely it is because of the ever increasing starting stacks and lengthened structures of Jimmy's events that lead to the dealer add-on.

As it stood, prior to Jimmy jumping the starting stacks to 3x normal starting stacks and adding as many as 7 more levels to the beginning levels of events, his dealers would earn as little as $8/down and never more than $17/down. Additionally, they could have as few as 1 down an hour. (i.e. they were earning around $15 an hour) A large reason TD's get their gigs is based on their ability to bring along a large staff of first rate dealers to work events- and trust me no first rate dealers are going to travel to Reno and pay $40/night for a room to work a job that pays $15/hour. As a result Jimmy's events are increasingly staffed by break-in dealers now. Adding levels and chips to starting stacks will water down the toke rate more, and if he didn't find a way to fix that- he wouldn't have been able to get anyone to work the events at all.

Therefore- Jimmy pushed for a dealer appreciation to be added.

On a side note- all the monies that go towards the "dealers" goes towards the staff. Roughly 65%ish to dealers and 35%ish to the floor staff; including the "dealer" appreciation add-on. Of that 35% Jimmy and each floor gets a pre-set "share" regardless of how long events take, as opposed to a dealer whose share is offset by how long the tournament lasts. Therefore, it behooves Jimmy and the floor staff to entice as many players to buy-in as possible by any means necessary- which is why the monstrously large starting stacks and structures. Additionally, while the 'dealer appreciation' only makes the toke rate the same for the dealers as it was prior to the increased structure, it almost doubles the money made by Jimmy and the other floormen.

TL;dr:

In most large tournament series held around the country, every dollar you tip, voluntarily or forcibly, gets broken up in the following way:
$0.35 to the TD and floormen;
$0.65 to the dealers.

Dealer appreciation add-ons are a bogus way to rake more off events with pumped up structures without openly advertising that they are taking more out to pay the staff; a necessity in events with pumped up structures.

Jimmy Sommerfield makes a boatload of cash as a result.
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:10 PM   #77
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Believe me there were no levels added at gsr. I played several mixed events there as well as a few nl and the main. For the amount in fees we paid, there literally was no play. Noon events were over the same day, and the 4pm mixed events finished by 11pm with 4 bet stacks at the ft. Staff there even cut the levels to 15mins when there was talk of a deal.

The 1k main had only 45min levels, skipped several levels as well.

For the incredible amount of juice charged, I expected a lot more play.
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:06 AM   #78
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

This is a good thread Allen. I was also at the GSR this week, and this came up at one point during a break. FWIW, A Dealer told me and a friend that both the $5 add-on, AND any dealer tips given at payout, are split 70/30, with 70 percent going to the dealers.

I gave a nice tip when I cashed this week, but I'm seriously considering not doing it anymore on small or medium sized cashes.
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:54 PM   #79
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This is a good thread Allen. I was also at the GSR this week, and this came up at one point during a break. FWIW, A Dealer told me and a friend that both the $5 add-on, AND any dealer tips given at payout, are split 70/30, with 70 percent going to the dealers.

I gave a nice tip when I cashed this week, but I'm seriously considering not doing it anymore on small or medium sized cashes.
so basically at gsr, the dealer appreciation is just an extension of the 3% fee. I asked jimmy and he said that was how it was at most casinos, although he wasn't sure on Venetian.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:41 PM   #80
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Believe me there were no levels added at gsr. I played several mixed events there as well as a few nl and the main. For the amount in fees we paid, there literally was no play. Noon events were over the same day, and the 4pm mixed events finished by 11pm with 4 bet stacks at the ft. Staff there even cut the levels to 15mins when there was talk of a deal.

The 1k main had only 45min levels, skipped several levels as well.

For the incredible amount of juice charged, I expected a lot more play.
Well, if you look back to, say 2007, when it was a WPT stop, the main event was 10k and the prelims were $1000ish ($1500 I believe). In the $1500 event the players all started with 3k in chips. and I believe it was 30 minute levels- though it may have been 45.

I am no longer working the GSR's events so I don't know really what the structure was, but I'm guessing that the starting stack was around 15k? Even if it was 10k that is significantly more play than 3k.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:10 PM   #81
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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At the venetian, of the $350 they collect, which is advertised as $300 + 40, 291 goes to the prizepool, and 59 goes to assorted fees.
nm, figured it out
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:25 PM   #82
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

Basically with all these new fees, its hard to find an event $500 or less with less than 20% in addons. Your 10 handed starting table has 2 players who have no contribution to the prizepool.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:32 PM   #83
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

I actually just played a very nice $500+50+10 dealer add-on. 40 min levels and decent amount of levels too. It was at the canterbury card club in minnesota. Its a very well run establishment, I always have a good time there.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:52 AM   #84
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I actually just played a very nice $500+50+10 dealer add-on. 40 min levels and decent amount of levels too. It was at the canterbury card club in minnesota. Its a very well run establishment, I always have a good time there.
I assume they take the standard 3% for staff. This becomes 485+75, which is a bargain in todays environment. I remember a few years ago, $500 events were 525 or 530.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:17 AM   #85
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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I assume they take the standard 3% for staff. This becomes 485+75, which is a bargain in todays environment. I remember a few years ago, $500 events were 525 or 530.
ya but to be fair the structures a few years ago for any $500 live tournament were complete horse ****
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:31 AM   #86
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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ya but to be fair the structures a few years ago for any $500 live tournament were complete horse ****
Thank You for saying this Jon! Allen you can't keep complaining for moar play as what Jimmy says is true that if you give moar it costs more for the casinos to staff it and the dealers get killed by "deep stacked" small buy in events.

The old Commerce (before I was there) $500's and below gave 1,000-1,500 in chips and went

25-25
25-50
50-100
100-200

if you want that back I am sure Jimmy, Johnny, Tab, and others would be willing to introduce a lower rake/dealer-staff fee.

I have and will never be I support of "bonus chips" but also think deep stack tournaments are just a gimmick (a very successful one mind you) also. The WSOP pre 2006 gave dollar for dollar in chips and the players thought the structures were great! I did however give every level in the prelims and 75 minutes in the money and 90 at the final table in 2002-2004. Do you think it is ideal that you can be in Las Vegas for almost 10 days in the WSOP Main now and not even cash?

I know you may not believe or understand this but there are MANY people that feel that tournaments are too long and prefer to play in turbos and what I agree are total crapshoots ala GSR.

You are actually fighting on both sides of this issue Allen so I think you need to pick one and stick with it.

Last edited by Matt Savage; 08-04-2010 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:47 AM   #87
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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You are actually fighting on both sides of this issue Allen so I think you need to pick one and stick with it.
+1 except I think the OP was intended to be about the shadiness of the dealer bonus and then thread sidetracked to absurdity of live tournament rake.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:55 AM   #88
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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+1 except I think the OP was intended to be about the shadiness of the dealer bonus and then thread sidetracked to absurdity of live tournament rake.

I agree with that point 100% but it has morphed into a crusade to get fees lowered which while I think is a good cause in general but you cannot have it both ways.

It is similar to Allen bitching at me about a structure in a $220 limit hold'em (he liked my other structures at the time-2009) that then morphed into me vs. him in a public debate.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:13 AM   #89
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Originally Posted by Matt Savage View Post
Thank You for saying this Jon! Allen you can't keep complaining for moar play as what Jimmy says is true that if you give moar it costs more for the casinos to staff it and the dealers get killed by "deep stacked" small buy in events.

The old Commerce (before I was there) $500's and below gave 1,000-1,500 in chips and went

25-25
25-50
50-100
100-200

if you want that back I am sure Jimmy, Johnny, Tab, and others would be willing to introduce a lower rake/dealer-staff fee.

I have and will never be I support of "bonus chips" but also think deep stack tournaments are just a gimmick (a very successful one mind you) also. The WSOP pre 2006 gave dollar for dollar in chips and the players thought the structures were great! I did however give every level in the prelims and 75 minutes in the money and 90 at the final table in 2002-2004. Do you think it is ideal that you can be in Las Vegas for almost 10 days in the WSOP Main now and not even cash?

I know you may not believe or understand this but there are MANY people that feel that tournaments are too long and prefer to play in turbos and what I agree are total crapshoots ala GSR.

You are actually fighting on both sides of this issue Allen so I think you need to pick one and stick with it.
+1
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:16 AM   #90
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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I agree with that point 100% but it has morphed into a crusade to get fees lowered which while I think is a good cause in general but you cannot have it both ways.

It is similar to Allen bitching at me about a structure in a $220 limit hold'em (he liked my other structures at the time-2009) that then morphed into me vs. him in a public debate.
Fees can be lowered, but a fair fee is what the customer will pay.... Players are paying for a product, and the "market" has established that the current fees are "fair". Lowering the fees should rationally lead to a change in the product offered, whether the events a shorter, or the amenities are eliminated.......
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:21 AM   #91
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

I have spoken to numerous high profile players on this exact topic: Juice.....

When it's explained in the real terms of 2000-2005 versus now, and the difference in chips, structures, etc, the general consensus is that more juice is fair. They don't like paying it, but it is fair. Just like buying a car..... If the company makes $200 on a $20,000 car, we would rather pay $19,000 for that same car, but understand that if we do, the company does not profit. It is most certainly "OK" for a company to make a profit, and if the company makes too much profit, the market will dictate that the company lower prices, or a competitor will do and take away the business....
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:23 AM   #92
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

Structures have improved dramatically and rake should be higher than it was. And small buyin tournaments are going to have a high % raked, that's inevitable given the costs involved. But everything should be clearly disclosed.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:26 AM   #93
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

my local indian casino(cypress bayou) just ran a 200$ tourney on saturday. 200 went to prize pool and you had the option of 15 or 25 dealer bonus, so it was 200+25 total for 15k chips, 25/50 starting blinds, 30min lvls. no 3% taken from the 200 either.

/brag
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:31 AM   #94
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Structures have improved dramatically and rake should be higher than it was. And small buyin tournaments are going to have a high % raked, that's inevitable given the costs involved. But everything should be clearly disclosed.
Agreed. Our gaming commission requires that we put the information on our schedule of events, and we do.... it is just just good common sense business practice to do so....
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:40 AM   #95
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Structures have improved dramatically and rake should be higher than it was. And small buyin tournaments are going to have a high % raked, that's inevitable given the costs involved. But everything should be clearly disclosed.
This.

It just makes sense
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:57 PM   #96
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Fees can be lowered, but a fair fee is what the customer will pay.... Players are paying for a product, and the "market" has established that the current fees are "fair". Lowering the fees should rationally lead to a change in the product offered, whether the events a shorter, or the amenities are eliminated.......
This is such a scumbag/greedy answer.

This is like saying " I'm going to charge X$ for a product that's a 1000% markup from what it actually cost, but it's fair, because people will pay that price"

Please, gtfo.

You probably think it's okay for vendors to charge $6 for a soda at a baseball game/movie because it's "fair"
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:01 PM   #97
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

Can the casinos just ****ing pay the dealers a salary. **** I hate feeling like a scumbag because "if u don't tip, then how will dealers live", u know what dealers, go take it up with management and strike.

To make 60k/yr dealing (40hrs/52weeks), they have to get paid 30 an hour. There are very few dealers (maybe like 1%) that deserve this type of pay.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:05 PM   #98
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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Agreed. Our gaming commission requires that we put the information on our schedule of events, and we do.... it is just just good common sense business practice to do so....
i can 100% agree that we have to pay more now than we used to and we get more for the $, but i can't agree that simply putting the fees on the schedule is right. this needs to be put on EVERY receipt in detailed fashion so everyone knows that $.65 of every dollar of the fee goes to the floor and .35 to the dealers, etc. all of this info needs to be clearly marked on receipts and i definitely haven't ever seen it on there.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:19 PM   #99
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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This is such a scumbag/greedy answer.

This is like saying " I'm going to charge X$ for a product that's a 1000% markup from what it actually cost, but it's fair, because people will pay that price"

Please, gtfo.

You probably think it's okay for vendors to charge $6 for a soda at a baseball game/movie because it's "fair"
you are probably the guy who bitches about candy prices at movie theaters right?
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:37 PM   #100
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Re: The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed.

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you are probably the guy who bitches about candy prices at movie theaters right?
At the movie theater? No, because i'm not a total moron. I just choose not to pay it.

However, it doesn't make it right or fair to charge something with a 1000x markup. Especially for something that isn't good for us.

Jesus, we're paying people to slowly poison ourselves every day.
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