only if 50% of his raise goes to the prize pool

No matter what juice or fees the bellagio charges for their events, the casino play of just a small percentage of the entrants covers what Matt termed a loss leader

Great reasoning TT. How about we don't refer to MTTs as a loss leader if we don't really know what the term means?

Let's see, Matt stated that casino managers usually view tournaments as loss leaders. Matt works with a lot of casino managers, his statement of their view of tournaments is probably accurate! It's in accord with my limited experience in discussing the issue with people.

If you're taking issue with the term "loss leader" being used in a less than uber-precise manner by casino managers, I have no idea why. And I've never authored a business strategy textbook, but I think the use of the term for the practice of running events that aren't profitable standing alone in order to attract people who will spend more money in the casino seems perfectly reasonable.

I'm good w/all this TT, here is my issue with using the term regarding live MTTs. Matt stated that tournament dealers aren't well compensated, and that 6% vig to dealers/staff shouldn't be considered unrealistic. He then stated that tournies are viewed as loss leaders.

Well, if tournies are loss leaders, the casino is the one that needs to worry about properly compensating the dealers. It's illogical to imply that players need to be taxed extra so that dealers are properly compensated b/c having the casino compensate them properly cuts into their profit margin too much.

Basically, if tournies are loss leaders then casinos can't use the argument that compensating their employees themselves makes the tournies unprofitable, since "loss leaders" are by definition unprofitable.

I hope you all realize I am on your side of this argument! It is one I have fought my whole career and I have many times said to managemet types "don't have the tournament I it cost so much", That works every time. I tend not to work with properties that have that attitude too hardcore so just so you know Commerce and Bay 101 management realize that value as do most that try and remove tournaments. It does not mean that they would ever pay dealers more for dealing tournaments than live games whether it is right or wrong.

BTW 2+2 posting while in Seattle traffic is not advisable!

good point. If tourneys are loss leaders the casino should just pay the staff and dealers a fair wage, and not tack on a bunch of hidden fees for the players.

5 stars, best DJ thread ever!

I think Pujols brings the best points to the table. It should be on the casino to fairly compensate the staff and not disguise their wage as hidden fees.

Matt Savage still ftw tho.

good thread.

up top chainsaw

I was all set to use the Chainsaw strategy when I cashed this weekend at CAZ... but the TD handed me my winnings and didn't open the door by asking if I would like to leave something for the dealers... sigh. Obv I didn't cash for quite enough money (28th place). I guarantee all of those at the FT where the big bucks were made were asked... Saturday's entry was 125+25 plus the optionals... 10 "for the dealers" and 5 more if you play a keno card. LOL They've even gotten the Keno room in on it. 4500 starting chip plus 1000 for each of the two addons. As I said before, what tournament player would EVER turn down 44% more chips for an extra 10% on their buyin? Thus, THESE ARE DEFACTO FEES AND SHOULD BE ON OUR RECEIPTS FOR TAX PURPOSES.

+1,000,000,000

I assume they take 3% from the 125 for staff. So the buy in is 121 + 4 for staff + 25 for house + 10 more for staff + 5 for keno? Totals out to 121+ 44 in assorted fees. Exactly what is on that receipt? Do you pay the extra 10 and 5 at registration, or at the table?

Receipt is for $150. Extra $10 collected by dealer AT TABLE in cash or casino chips and eventually TD comes around and takes all such monies from dealer. Extra $5 is collected by keno runner in cash AT TABLE (every seat has a blank keno entry and a crayon), they return later with keno ticket. Obv we can actually win money on the keno so that muddies the water a bit... but I often walk out and forget to even check if I won anything. As I often remark at the table, I could give a damn about the stupid keno BS, just give me my extra chips. (Edit: this is at Casino Arizona FYI)

That's nearly 40% in assorted addons

I just looked at my Venetian DSE receipts, and they just list the total including the dealer add-on. So, for example, the $550 + 10 shows the total as $560.

Not going to re-read the entire thread, but I believe one of the points being raised is that the receipts only show the entry, not the dealer add on - that's not the case with the V.

OT

ps - If I've misread the thread and that's not a point being raised, just ignore me...

Welcome to the world of "small time", local tournaments. I play because I love the game and the competition, not because I think I can make money at it over the long haul. In the long run I know the casinos just kill the little players (like me) who are competent but not anywhere near world-class... solely because of the exorbitant rake.

In their defense, when they do run a "big time" tourney - like the Arizona State Poker Championship at CAZ from 8/13-8/16 - their rake percentage is in line with other larger buy-in events elsewhere - it is a $1000+50 with a $25 dealer toke for 50% more starting chips...

But for the daily, weekly and monthly tourneys, the house basically is robbing the players blind IMO.

Several players insist that the $300 events at v don't list the dealer addon. I assume u have those receipts as well?

Does anyone know if legends charges a dealer addon? 194+28 seems hi enough already ......

$10 for 2,000 chips in the $200 and $300 events.

so its 194+38. No player can overcome that

Yup - looking at one right now. Just says $350 total - no breakdown.

OT

yeah it's steep, but I'd venture to say I could overcome it.

This shouldn't happen, his backers absolutely should owe him

yes, legends has had a $10 add-on to each mtt so far (with the exception of the shootout). the cage is just adding it on without asking. it does appear on the receipt. so for the $335, my receipt said $345 but of course no breakdown of who gets what percent, etc.