The mystery of the dealer chip bonus addon revealed. - Page 5 - WSOP and Tournament Circut

matt and johnny, I don't mind paying more fees, that are disclosed on the receipt, and not collected in cash at the table, but when I do pay all the fees, I should get what I'm paying for. Gsr charged well over 20% in fees for events that played out in less than 7 hours including breaks, and had a main event with 45 min levels.

Like you said, you can't have it both ways.

Its ok to charge a reasonable fee for these bad structured turbos, but when you tack on fee after fee, more play should result.

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08-04-2010 , 11:16 PM

#102

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by borderline

This is such a scumbag/greedy answer.

This is like saying " I'm going to charge X$ for a product that's a 1000% markup from what it actually cost, but it's fair, because people will pay that price"

Please, gtfo.

You probably think it's okay for vendors to charge $6 for a soda at a baseball game/movie because it's "fair"

We will agree to disagree on the first point, unless you can tell me what a fair price would be.....

Point 2, of course its fair... please tell me u dont think people pay 5,000 for a Louis Vuitton bag because that what it's worth.... Of course its a fair price, that's how markets work.

As for the vendors at a game or theater, once again, if people will pay it, it's a fair price. Who are you , or I , or anyone who doesn't own a movie theater, to say what a fair price is. Do I like paying that price, NO. If I want a soda do I pay it.... It all depends on how bad I want the soda

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08-04-2010 , 11:17 PM

#103

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by borderline

Can the casinos just ****ing pay the dealers a salary. **** I hate feeling like a scumbag because "if u don't tip, then how will dealers live", u know what dealers, go take it up with management and strike.

To make 60k/yr dealing (40hrs/52weeks), they have to get paid 30 an hour. There are very few dealers (maybe like 1%) that deserve this type of pay.

This is precisely what I didnt want to see this thread get to.....

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08-04-2010 , 11:19 PM

#104

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by borderline

At the movie theater? No, because i'm not a total moron. I just choose not to pay it.

However, it doesn't make it right or fair to charge something with a 1000x markup. Especially for something that isn't good for us.

Jesus, we're paying people to slowly poison ourselves every day.

Once again, right and fair are subjective.

Is it ok to pay a 1,000% markup for vitamins, they are certainly good for us..... Why does that make any difference.

If you feel that strongly about it, don't pay to poison yourself....

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08-04-2010 , 11:21 PM

#105

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublejoker

What if they are disclosed on the schedule of events, a structure sheet, and a sign at the registration desk that notifies each player of the dealer fee?

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08-04-2010 , 11:24 PM

#106

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by borderline

The casino, or any business does not pay their employees. All laboe costs, as well as any other cost is borne by the purchasers of their goods or services. Sure, casinos could pay a salary, but that cost would be passed along to the players through rake, portions of the prize pool, or........ A bonus chip toke.....

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08-04-2010 , 11:41 PM

#107

sketchy1

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Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

What if they are disclosed on the schedule of events, a structure sheet, and a sign at the registration desk that notifies each player of the dealer fee?

simply for tax purposes they need to be on the receipt too

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08-05-2010 , 12:14 AM

#108

doublejoker

Old News

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,953

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

What if they are disclosed on the schedule of events, a structure sheet, and a sign at the registration desk that notifies each player of the dealer fee?

They basically held you up for cash once at the table for the dealer fee. They were Hawking a 120 super but failed to mention you had to pay more once u got to your table.

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08-05-2010 , 12:16 AM

#109

PIK4CHU

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,581

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

Or maybe the owners could stop making billion dollar salaries, and only million dollar salaries.

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08-05-2010 , 12:20 AM

#110

doublejoker

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Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,953

I always thought casinos paid their employees.... hmmm

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08-05-2010 , 12:28 AM

#111

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PIK4CHU

Or maybe the owners could stop making billion dollar salaries, and only million dollar salaries.

I dont think any gaming CEO has a billion dollar salary.....

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08-05-2010 , 12:29 AM

#112

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by doublejoker

I always thought casinos paid their employees.... hmmm

Directly they do, but indirectly, they pay their employees from fees and revenue that they bring in.....From the players....

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08-05-2010 , 12:34 AM

#113

doublejoker

Old News

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,953

Johnny are u still at the beau? Are they going to a dealer bonus? If so, is it disclosed up front when u register on the receipt, or is it paid in cash at the table.
Also do the dealers get all or a portion of it

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08-05-2010 , 12:39 AM

#114

TurnUpTheSun

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

everthing in this post blew my mind.
those poor casino owners.

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08-05-2010 , 01:26 AM

#115

PIK4CHU

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,581

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

I dont think any gaming CEO has a billion dollar salary.....

I was being facetious, clearly.

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08-05-2010 , 01:28 AM

#116

PIK4CHU

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,581

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

Directly they do, but indirectly, they pay their employees from fees and revenue that they bring in.....From the players....

You misunderstand the words 'cause' and 'prerequisite.'

Yes, players giving the casino money is a prerequisite to having the employees getting paid.

The cause of the employees getting paid is a contract made between the casino and employee, and has nothing to do with the player (outside of tips).

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08-05-2010 , 01:30 AM

#117

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by doublejoker

I am at the Beau. We do a dealer toke on any event with a buy-in less than $500, simply because the standard withhold amount in a $300 tournament makes it very difficult for the traveling dealers to make a living.

As far as the breakdown, our standard is 70/30 on all withheld money. The bonus chip toke is listed on the schedule of events, on the structure sheet at the registration desk, the registration staff collects the fee and explains it to each player, and a sign that notifies players that all events with a buy in smaller than $500 will have an optional dealer toke.

It is not on the receipt, but we put an ink stamp on the receipt to indicate payment.

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08-05-2010 , 01:32 AM

#118

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TurnUpTheSun

everthing in this post blew my mind.
those poor casino owners.

Oddly enough, those poor casino owners (in most cases) are stockholders. Most casino companies are publicly traded stocks....

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08-05-2010 , 01:36 AM

#119

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PIK4CHU

Semantics aside, we both understand that the cost of the labor IS borne by the players, whether directly (through tips) or indirectly (through wages, paid by the company, from the revenue, which comes from the players).

Lets just say that we decide to pay the dealers $15 per hour. As they now are paid minumum wage, obviously that would be a significant increase in cost. Would the casino bear this cost and reduce profits? Obviously not.... they would raise prices.

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08-05-2010 , 08:13 AM

#120

DonkeyChip

adept

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,030

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

Lets just say that we decide to pay the dealers $15 per hour. As they now are paid minumum wage, obviously that would be a significant increase in cost. Would the casino bear this cost and reduce profits? Obviously not.... they would raise prices.

Didn't they already raise the price by adding the dealer toke?

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08-05-2010 , 11:05 AM

#121

JohnnyGroomsTD

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkeyChip

Didn't they already raise the price by adding the dealer toke?

Yes. This was to pay for the increase in labor costs. The deepstack events can cause as much as a 50% increase in the number of downs required to deal a tournament. This causes a significant drop in the pay for traveling dealers, and when added to the cost of travel and hotel rooms, it makes the job less viable.

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08-05-2010 , 05:23 PM

#122

doublejoker

Old News

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,953

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyGroomsTD

So the entire pay increase is paid by the players, rather than a multi billion dollar corporation?

Why can't the casinos just pay poker dealers a fair wage. Their job brings in plenty of other revenue not directly obtained from a given poker tourney.

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08-05-2010 , 06:25 PM

#123

Matt Savage

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,148

What we have learned from this thread

1. TD's need to make sure that %'s, bonus chips, entry fees are properly written on receipts, structure sheets, and payout areas.

2. Though it it sometimes called a dealer add-on it is often going to both the dealers and the staff.

3. Structures are for the most part much better than they were 5 years ago.

4. Deep Stack tournaments cost more money to staff demand more dealer downs.

5. Though highly unlikely it would be nice if casinos would help subsidize dealers even though the players are the ones demanding longer structures.

/Thread

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08-05-2010 , 07:34 PM

#124

CardSharpCook

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Savage

I know you may not believe or understand this but there are MANY people that feel that tournaments are too long and prefer to play in turbos and what I agree are total crapshoots ala GSR.

You are actually fighting on both sides of this issue Allen so I think you need to pick one and stick with it.

Yeah, this is me. Just a few years ago I used to be able to go down to Binion's and play a $100 tourney that would be over in 4 hours. And that's if you stayed to the end. Now it is 8 and 10 hours. No effing way, man. That's not fun, and its not profitable. Too many chips, too many levels, and the levels are too long. I'll play some of Savage's non-nlhe events, but I'd play more if the damn tourneys didn't take so long.

In 2008 I swore off the rest of the WSOP after playing LHE for 18 hours and not cashing in a 3k event. I'm wtf man. How much "play" do you need?

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08-05-2010 , 07:38 PM

#125

borderline

banned

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,356

Excuse my ignorance, but why is the staff getting a cut out of the "dealer add-on"? Especially as big as a cut as 30-35%? How hard is it to run a tournament? Do you feel that the staff is half as important otherwise? How many staff members are there and how many dealers are there?

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