Lately alot of tournament venues have gone to the "Dealer Appreciation" bonus where for a small fee, usually $5 or $10, you are given an amount of "extra" chips, usually about 20 to 30% over the standard buyin amount.

In some cases, as at the Venetian, the event is advertised as $340, but when you walk up to pay at registration, they ask you for $350. They will tell you the other $10 is for the dealer bonus only if you ask. The receipt says $340 which caused a bit of controversy the last series I was there.

Other places such as here in Reno at the Grand Sierra advertise an event as $200 ($175 +25), but when you get to the table they ask you for $5 for the dealers for an extra 1000 chips. The starting stack is 4000, so everyone takes out the $5 and pays for the extra chips.

Basically the buyin is $175, with 3% going to staff and $25 going to the casino. The new buyin becomes $170 after the 3% with $30 in fees.

Now the extra $5. I finished third in todays omaha 8 event for about $1300. when you get to the payout table, they make you fill out a sheet. It says amount won, dealer tip, amount collected.

I told the floorperson doing the payouts, that it is my policy not to tip anything if there is a dealer tip bonus collected by the casino. In fact, I told him had they not collected that from me I would have tipped around $30 or $40. He said he could understand my feelings on that and handed me the payout. Even if no one tips anything, they still come out ahead with this system since they are guaranteed 6% of the buyin for staff, plus I would guess when presented this paperwork, most players tip even more.

A dealer overheard me, and told me that they do not even get the dealer bonus, and that is standard in most casinos. I went back and asked the floorman if that was the case, and he replied that the dealer chip bonus money is split the same way as the 3% that is taken out of the $175 buyin money.

Basically what is happening is that they have found a way to take 6% of the buyin rather than the accepted 3% for dealers and staff, and are passing that on as a dealer chip bonus. when infact you are just paying 6% of the buyin for dealers and staff, plus the fee.

In this case of the $205 collected, $35 went for assorted fees and 170 to the prizepool.

At the venetian, of the $350 they collect, which is advertised as $300 + 40, 291 goes to the prizepool, and 59 goes to assorted fees.


I spoke with Matt Savage about this at dinner, and he said he isnt jumping on the chip bonus bandwagon, and agreed with my view that it was just a way to take out more money for the dealers and staff. He said that his standard is 3% and that he doesnt expect people to leave more although appreciated. He also said he wrote an article on this, and had no issue with the way I handled the tip situation in this case.

If they want to charge 6% for dealers and staff, they should just do it up front, no need for the shenanigans of charging you more than the advertised fee when you register, or asking you for a tip bonus once you're at the table.

lol who plays liveaments anymore?

but then again i dont live in vegas

lol wow what a scumbag thing to do if 100% of that does not go to the dealers.

allen, this is easily the best post you've ever made on 2+2 and i commend you greatly for making it. no leveling, thank you very very much.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65...ct-but-837172/

i'm being semi-nitty here cuz it's just $20 usually but this type of stuff pisses me off. the overall way the WSOP/WSOPC handles fees is completely and utterly unprofessional... hell it extends to basically every tournament i've ever played live.

when you pay $1,000 or even $50,000 for a buyin at the WSOP, you get a receipt. no where on there does it explain how the fee breaks down. you see $50,000 paid, and not a single mention of who gets the money (not even the amount they take out!!!).

in NO profession out there would this type of misinformation on a receipt for that type of $ be acceptable.

now the dealer addon thing... well, when they advertise it as a "dealer appreciation" thing, and give you a nice % of chips for the $, then yeah everyone takes it. if someone is a nit and doesn't wanna add $10 to their $120 buyin or whatever it may be, i can understand that. but who on EARTH wouldn't take $20 for x amount of chips for a $5k buyin?? seriously, you'd have to be on crack not to take that deal and i bet it's actually closer to 99.9% of people take it.

but my personal gripe is one that i'm sure some other life nits share... i am backed for these main events and don't bring tons of cash with me. sometimes i will play cash afterwards, mostly i won't and just head home. and the majority of the time, since i don't usually have cash on my persons and just keep what i have in the bank, i don't have much spare cash on me when i get to the casino.

yeah, i can go to the ATM or borrow $20 from someone--but it seems like a totally unnecessary hassle. i don't think anyone will really argue against a $4780+200+20 breakdown, or whatever it may be, for the total buyin. if there's 300 people in an event, it's just $6k less in the prize pool, not that big of a deal. but it seriously drives me crazy, and makes me feel like i'm playing some turbo noon'er at the commerce instead of a main event when a dealer asks me for $20 at the table.

but at the very least they need to be more honest and open and put the actual breakdown of where each $ is going on the receipt.

It's basically a tournament sanctioned bribe. Nice.

I agree, they do this at Phoenix casinos too and it tilts me to no end.

Having said that, I'm a sap that not only pays the "dealer appreciation" to get the extra chips, but then I leave additional if I finish in the top 3 or 4... because I somehow feel "guilty" for them handing me hundreds or thousands and not leaving a tip.

Next time I'm in this spot, I'm gonna think of Chainsaw and not only NOT leave a tip, but explain to them WHY. Casinos are def taking advantage of saps like me. If the dealer's aren't getting the "dealer appreciation" toke in full, that's THEIR problem to work out with the house... not ours.

Thanks Allen, I needed this little boost of "F U" in me.

So harrahs is charging $345+10 this year on its $300 wsopc prelims? I would assume that means $291 goes into the prizepool and $64 in fees. It may be less than 291 to the prize pool because I heard they were also taking out something for the 1 million free roll, and something for best overall player freeroll.

a good friend of mine sold all his action for the VDSE and didn't include the dealer bonus. he arrived for reg and realized his mistake. he ended up paying for dealer bonus for of each tourneys, while still having to give his backers thier full %

I played the 300+30 last Saturday at Grand Sierra and finshed 11th for $799 after agreeing to take out 25 of each spot payed so buble boy would get his 300 back I got $774. So i tipped the dealers $24.00. Was this too much? Should I have just taken all the $$'s. I don't think they should call the $5.00 dealer appreciation if it does not go to the dealers.

cliffs:
Not tipping is fine when they take out 3% for dealers, sometimes it's 6% and still fine to not tip more.

Casinos are greedy.

Matt Savage is reasonable.

No money in live poker, everyone pays too much juice

Ya I always wished they were more upfront about the fees taken. You never know if the dealers are taken care of or not. And usually the dealers tell you they are not.

I believe some of the LAPC structures have indicated $buy-in+house juice+dealer split in the past.

Matt would be able to chime in.

The Grand Sierra/Hilton in Reno has had this policy of shoving this piece of paper in your face when you cash that basically says "how much you gonna leave for the dealers?" I don't know if this is a casino thing-- I hope its not a Jimmy Sommerfield thing. I've been told it has been done to protect the dealers to insure they get their share of tokes.

I strongly agree with the sentiment that if I spend an extra $5 or $10 for "dealer bonus" that the money needs to go 100% to the dealers. Anything else borders on a scam.

I strongly agree with you.

ya i'm fairly certain commerce receipts look better than most and display most everything on them. however, i'm pretty sickened by the way the WSOP/WSOPC seems to handle receipts. it doesn't really indicate ANY type of way how the $ is broken down. you really have to go find it on their website or find a structure sheet in the hallway, turn it over, and see the fine print. that's just ridiculous. this should be displayed everywhere on the schedule, on the structure sheet, on the payout sheet, and before you even get to the window, there should be something in the registration room with information about the buyin amounts and how the fee breaks down. they ask you for a tip when you cashout, and no one even knows what the juice is when you ask lol.

Thank you for addressing this Kessler.

good thread

59/291 = .2027

atrocious

Not to seem paranoid or dillusional but I always feel like everything involving poker is somewhat "shady" as standard. From the casinos to the players to the floor men alike ( savage).
So to me, it always "makes sense" after I discover that I have been deceived either by another player's hand or just the details revolving around the game I'm playing in; cash or tournament.

So for casinos to not have a blow up wall frame of the rake they take from the games comes as no surprise to me. Most players (fish) don't even think about such things and casinos realize that showcasing gold bracelets and keeping every room "illuminated" will all but ensure that the masses will never inquire about this much less make a matter out of it (IMdillusionalO).

Home games dilute their tables with beer bottles, candy bars, snacks, and plasma televisions for the same reasons as casinos paper interesting media down every corridor. Sleight of hand.

The matter being discussed is nowhere near as severe as I am making it out to be. Although I don't think I am far off in my overall view of what I did mention.

So for tax record purposes, I write on my receipt "+$10" to indicate my ACTUAL entry fee... I know the standard disclaimer about not being a licensed tax preparer or attorney, yadda yadda... but does anyone think if I try to add in this additional fee the IRS won't like it (or me)?

Casino Arizona runs a weeknight tourney of $105+$25 and a $10 dealer toke... so its 35/140=25%... which is why I don't play it even tho I'd love to be a reg and play every night.

How anyone thinks they can beat 25% tourney rake is beyond me. I'm sure most don't notice or care but... geez people sure are willing from the turnout.

What shows on the receipt?

$130 is on receipt. $10 dealer toke is "optional" and collected in cash at table. It is listed with those words on tourney flyer which I intend to save with my tax records as proof. Word "optional" is misleading. What self respecting tournament player would ever turn down 25% more chips for less than 10% additional buyin? Everyone takes it... so it is a de facto fee set by the house just like the $105 "+$25" is.

At least for the WSOP-Cevent at the Horseshoe in Council Bluffs coming up in a few weeks, its 3% vig plus for any ring events they take an additional 1% for the 1M freeroll. There is also the "dealer appreciation" amount as well for most (if not all) events.

Ok so the bottom line is $288 to prizepool, $3 to million freeroll, $9 to staff, $45 to casino, $10 more to staff, so $288+67 or $355.