Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Tournament Events Live updates from major events, logistics, trip reports, and other live (not televised) major tournament discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-15-2019, 02:30 AM   #1
stumbras
journeyman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denver
Posts: 367
Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

It is quite simple I hate Rebuy/Late registration tournaments.
Anybody have a list of Freeze outs, short registration or limited rebuy tournaments?
stumbras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2019, 06:32 PM   #2
DafarginNuts
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
It is quite simple I hate Rebuy/Late registration tournaments.
Anybody have a list of Freeze outs, short registration or limited rebuy tournaments?
Should be stated somewhere on structure sheets I would think.

I too am not one for rebuy/late R. Most of the wsop events stop at one rebuy
DafarginNuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2019, 06:39 PM   #3
RealMcCoy
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 304
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by DafarginNuts View Post
Should be stated somewhere on structure sheets I would think.

I too am not one for rebuy/late R. Most of the wsop events stop at one rebuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
It is quite simple I hate Rebuy/Late registration tournaments.
Anybody have a list of Freeze outs, short registration or limited rebuy tournaments?
WSOP has a few freeze out / no rebuys- you just need to search - don't know of any that dont have late registration though.

Fri, Jun 21st 10:00 AM 5 Days
Monster Stack - $1,500 No-Limit Hold'em (Event #50) - Flight A
Structure Sheet
Reg Closes: 10 Levels
ReEntry: None
Levels: 60 Minutes
Starting Chips: 50000
RealMcCoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2019, 07:16 PM   #4
stumbras
journeyman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denver
Posts: 367
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealMcCoy View Post
WSOP has a few freeze out / no rebuys- you just need to search - don't know of any that dont have late registration though.

Fri, Jun 21st 10:00 AM 5 Days
Monster Stack - $1,500 No-Limit Hold'em (Event #50) - Flight A
Structure Sheet
Reg Closes: 10 Levels
ReEntry: None
Levels: 60 Minutes
Starting Chips: 50000
So, it means that somebody with money to gamble can buy in after I have been in tournament for 10 hours and gamble? It appears to me that tournaments are becoming big lottery events and the more tickets you buy the more chances you have.
So for regular recreational players who are not willing or able to do multiple rebuys it is less and less appealing.
stumbras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2019, 10:51 PM   #5
marky147
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Claude's Bar
Posts: 460
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
So, it means that somebody with money to gamble can buy in after I have been in tournament for 10 hours and gamble? It appears to me that tournaments are becoming big lottery events and the more tickets you buy the more chances you have.
So for regular recreational players who are not willing or able to do multiple rebuys it is less and less appealing.
Doesn't matter what time you buy it, you can only buy one ticket for the monster stack lottery
marky147 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 08:09 AM   #6
RealMcCoy
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 304
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
So, it means that somebody with money to gamble can buy in after I have been in tournament for 10 hours and gamble? It appears to me that tournaments are becoming big lottery events and the more tickets you buy the more chances you have.
So for regular recreational players who are not willing or able to do multiple rebuys it is less and less appealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky147 View Post
Doesn't matter what time you buy it, you can only buy one ticket for the monster stack lottery
+1:

Stumbras - In theory buying in and starting at level 1 you get to play the maximum number of hands against the weakest opponents. Bad Rec players will make more mistakes that you should be able to capitalize on and you have more BB in the cases where you have the best of it and lose. In the event I showed it is a FREEZE out - buy and bust - there are two starting days but again its a ONE shot entry per DAY. Rebuys can be frustrating if you have a limited number of bullets in your wallet BUT it builds the prize pool and gives you multiple shots at having the best hand against those that want to gamble. The only real downside is if you play for 8 hours dead even and you can't maintain your concentration level and someone sits down fresh with the same stack. Then in theory you are at a disadvantage. Personally I literally never buy in late with my first bullet and only occasionally will rebuy into an event. But that has more to do with my own mental attitude after I bust than pure variance aversion. I certainly will be more prone to rebuy if I get coolered in the 1st couple of levels of a WSOP event. **** happens -- I just deal with it.
RealMcCoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 01:51 PM   #7
michelle227
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,747
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
So, it means that somebody with money to gamble can buy in after I have been in tournament for 10 hours and gamble? It appears to me that tournaments are becoming big lottery events and the more tickets you buy the more chances you have.
So for regular recreational players who are not willing or able to do multiple rebuys it is less and less appealing.
I feel your pain as it relates to the turn towards making poker just another spelling for BINGO...more and more, decisions are being made that are not player-friendly. Such decisions are being made to mollify the degen gambler as well as maximizing house profits at the same time.

Sadly, the tournament directors have demonstrated more often than not that the recreational player is not someone they believe to be needed in the poker ecology. Never mind that, without the recreational player, poker begins to circle the drain...
michelle227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 04:15 PM   #8
Black Aces 518
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Black Aces 518's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: same dances in the same ole shoes
Posts: 8,517
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

"Not player-friendly" is used very often to mean "but I don't like it."

Allowing late reg or re-entry, especially single re-entry, isn't something to classify as "not player friendly." Two of my favorite WSOP tourneys are on the same day, HORSE and $1500 six max. I'm very glad that late reg is available in the six max, because it maximizes my chances to play it, in the event that HORSE doesn't go my way.

Similarly, I am having to miss the first 3 flights of Big 50. I'm very glad that I can re-enter Flight D if I happen to bust. So to me, those are player-friendly.

Some would say BBA is player-friendly, some (like you) would say it is not.
Some (like akashenk) would say fast structures are player-friendly, some (like chainsaw) would say slow structures are.

Save "not player-friendly" for things like increased rake, decreased amenities, etc., rather than personal preferences.
Black Aces 518 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 04:24 PM   #9
michelle227
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,747
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post

Save "not player-friendly" for things like increased rake, decreased amenities, etc., rather than personal preferences.
How interesting that you completely ignored the fundamental issue at hand, which is the trend of multiple re-entry creating a BINGO element/environment. There is precisely zero reason beyond TD/property greed to have permitted this element to grow and fester.

The OP raises a valid point that catering to the deep pocketed degens by allowing the multiple re-buys instead of a one and done shoves out some of the recreational tournament players that poker benefits from having in the poker ecology...

Not sure where 'decreased amenities' enters the equation since I don't know what amenities are attached to an entry fee.
michelle227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 04:30 PM   #10
Black Aces 518
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Black Aces 518's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: same dances in the same ole shoes
Posts: 8,517
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by michelle227 View Post
How interesting that you completely ignored the fundamental issue at hand, which is the trend of multiple re-entry creating a BINGO element/environment. There is precisely zero reason beyond TD/property greed to have permitted this element to grow and fester.

The OP raises a valid point that catering to the deep pocketed degens by allowing the multiple re-buys instead of a one and done shoves out some of the recreational tournament players that poker benefits from having in the poker ecology...

Not sure where 'decreased amenities' enters the equation since I don't know what amenities are attached to an entry fee.
What you completely ignore is that some recreational tournament players who poker benefits from having in the ecology PREFER the re-entry events. Particularly where travel is involved, it can surely suck to bust the noon event at 1230 and have nothing else until the next day.

I do agree that the overall proliferation of unlimited re-entry events is bad long-term for losing and/or underrolled players, and thus by definition poker. I would, however, disagree that reasonable late reg times, or single re-entry tournaments have the same issues. For example, is someone late regging an advantage or disadvantage? If advantage, why don't you do it? If disadvantage, why are you upset someone is paying a full entry fee in a -EV situation?

Decreased amenities would be, for example, if a poker room gives buffet coupons with an entry, and then stops doing so. Or drops comp dollars earned, or other reward credits. If Rio increased the prices in the poker kitchen 25%, it would be fair to call that player-unfriendly.
Black Aces 518 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 04:48 PM   #11
DafarginNuts
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 278
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by michelle227 View Post
I feel your pain as it relates to the turn towards making poker just another spelling for BINGO...more and more, decisions are being made that are not player-friendly. Such decisions are being made to mollify the degen gambler as well as maximizing house profits at the same time.

Sadly, the tournament directors have demonstrated more often than not that the recreational player is not someone they believe to be needed in the poker ecology. Never mind that, without the recreational player, poker begins to circle the drain...
Very well stated.
DafarginNuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 06:55 PM   #12
pig4bill
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 28,448
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

If WSOP events turn into tests of skill only, prepare to see field sizes drop by 70%. It's the promise of "you too can be Jerry Yang" that keeps rec players flocking to Vegas every summer.
pig4bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 08:25 PM   #13
stumbras
journeyman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denver
Posts: 367
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
What you completely ignore is that some recreational tournament players who poker benefits from having in the ecology PREFER the re-entry events. Particularly where travel is involved, it can surely suck to bust the noon event at 1230 and have nothing else until the next day.

I do agree that the overall proliferation of unlimited re-entry events is bad long-term for losing and/or underrolled players, and thus by definition poker. I would, however, disagree that reasonable late reg times, or single re-entry tournaments have the same issues. For example, is someone late regging an advantage or disadvantage? If advantage, why don't you do it? If disadvantage, why are you upset someone is paying a full entry fee in a -EV situation?

Decreased amenities would be, for example, if a poker room gives buffet coupons with an entry, and then stops doing so. Or drops comp dollars earned, or other reward credits. If Rio increased the prices in the poker kitchen 25%, it would be fair to call that player-unfriendly.
I have no issue with 1 re-entry and reasonable registration/rebuy period( maybe 6 levels). But it seems almost all tournaments have unlimited reentry and very long registration/rebuy.
stumbras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2019, 11:04 AM   #14
Black Aces 518
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Black Aces 518's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: same dances in the same ole shoes
Posts: 8,517
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
I have no issue with 1 re-entry and reasonable registration/rebuy period( maybe 6 levels). But it seems almost all tournaments have unlimited reentry and very long registration/rebuy.
Reasonable enough. What buyin level and game type are you looking for?
Black Aces 518 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2019, 12:57 PM   #15
KevinGChapman
grinder
 
KevinGChapman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 612
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Many perspectives, of course, but here's my local example and opinion. My local casino (PARX) runs it's BigStax series four times per year, and the opening event is a $300 buy-in with three or four "day 1" days that generate typically 2000-3000 -- so a huge prize pool and typically $100K or more for first place. If you can't play multiple Day 1 days and have to put all your bullets in one basket, I have no problem with somebody firing off 3 or 4 bullets on a single day. Each re-entry comes in later in the structure, so with fewer BB to start. The odds of building a big stack diminish the more short-stacked you are when you start, but those players are no different than the people who have been playing all day and are similarly short-stacked at the same point in time. (A few of them are maniacs who will shove any two cards in a "double-up-or rebuy again" mentality, but they are pretty easy to spot and can be exploited by the bigger stacks at the table.)

There is even an option to buy in at the start of Day 2 -- with 5BB. That's a total crap shoot and you are automatically all-in the first time you have any decent starting hand. It's more or less burning money, but one time somebody did that and made the final table, so it's a thing that some people will do. (A $300 bet on boxcars at the craps table earns you only $9000, if you get really lucky in the BigStax you can turn $300 into $100K.)

It's true that these players are playing BINGO with their short-stacked re-entries, but so what? They are also pumping up the prize pool for the folks who have built up big stacks by grinding it out. At some point every player will face a decision about pushing in a marginal spot or taking a coin-flip situation in order to double up. These guys are just doing it more often and sooner.

It feels "unfair" when you have played for 5 hours and built up a stack that is 2x the starting stack, then a late entry sits down and plays one hand and doubles up and now has the same chip stack as you, but it's really no different from a guy who has also played for 5 hours and has just a starting stack to show for it and then does the same thing.

Personally, I prefer a single re-entry limit, which keeps people "honest" while still allowing for one extra bullet when you walk into a cooler. I think the play at the table is more predictable, but I understand the value of allowing for larger guarantees and larger payouts by permitting unlimited re-entries.
KevinGChapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2019, 01:11 PM   #16
stumbras
journeyman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denver
Posts: 367
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
Reasonable enough. What buyin level and game type are you looking for?
500-2000$
stumbras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2019, 01:25 PM   #17
RealMcCoy
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 304
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbras View Post
500-2000$
In addition to the no rebuy Monster Stack (but two Day 1's so you can try twice) If you age qualify both Senior and Super Senior events for the WSOP are limited to 1 reentry each. Although that is allowed thru level 8 blinds 400/800
RealMcCoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2019, 01:31 PM   #18
Black Aces 518
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Black Aces 518's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: same dances in the same ole shoes
Posts: 8,517
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

$1500 shootout 6/6 has no re-entry, and reg only open 3 levels.

Most WSOP events are no re-entry or single re-entry, though registration is open later than you like.

GL
Black Aces 518 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM   #19
akashenk
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,989
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealMcCoy View Post
In addition to the no rebuy Monster Stack (but two Day 1's so you can try twice) If you age qualify both Senior and Super Senior events for the WSOP are limited to 1 reentry each. Although that is allowed thru level 8 blinds 400/800
I thought the Monster Stack was a freezeout event like the Main Event. One entry only and you choose which starting day you want to play. Has something changed?
akashenk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM   #20
Black Aces 518
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Black Aces 518's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: same dances in the same ole shoes
Posts: 8,517
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
I thought the Monster Stack was a freezeout event like the Main Event. One entry only and you choose which starting day you want to play. Has something changed?
Nope you are correct, absolutely no re-entry. That's a source of confusion every year, down to people putting 2 bullets for it in their packages of action. 10 levels of entry though, so dunno how exciting it is for OP.
Black Aces 518 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:21 PM   #21
akashenk
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,989
Re: Las Vegas Summer Freeze out/short registration/limited rebuy tournaments list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
Some would say BBA is player-friendly, some (like you) would say it is not. Some (like akashenk) would say fast structures are player-friendly, some (like chainsaw) would say slow structures are.

Save "not player-friendly" for things like increased rake, decreased amenities, etc., rather than personal preferences.
I’m glad you finally agree that BBA is entirely a matter of preference and not some sort existential benefit to the game.😀

Anyhow, I don’t believe I have ever said that fast structures are player-friendly. What I have said is really slow structures are not rec-friendly. I think this is sort of by definition since rec players do not have as much time to devote to poker.

And “fast” is a relative term. Some people think anything short of hour long levels is fast. That’s fine. I just disagree. There’s no reason a happy medium can’t be found which provides for plenty of “play” early and late in an event and gets things over with within three days. For me that means 40-50 minute levels day one.

I also believe the notion that the longer an event is the better it is for “skilled” players is vastly overstated. There is definitely a structure out there that is optimum for skill. I do not believe the slowest structure possible is the one.

There are basically two reasons I feel this way. 1) If player A is more skilled than player B, it means they are more likely to make a better decision at any given point in time. It does not mean player A will make every decision better than player B. And given the increased importance of the concept of risk of ruin in tournament play, and the fact that players have to make many more decisions in lengthy events, it just leads to more opportunities to make the wrong one.

And 2) it’s not skill that is a good predictor of poker success, but rather the relative skill of the people you’re competing against. Slower tournaments tend to attract higher-skilled players. I’m quite certain their real “EV” (if such a thing were even calculable) in these events is significantly lower than if they were playing a looser-structured event with more recreational players in it. This does not mean that skilled players (or at least players who think they’re skilled) should be chomping at the bit to play 20 minute level events. But there’s a equilibrium out there. And the super long tourneys we will see at the WSOP this summer are no closer to ideal than the turbos many “skilled” players scoff at.
akashenk is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online