The 3-day multi-flight weekends are certainly going to juice the fields, but they also may help dilute each day a bit and avoid the massive lines/late reg backups (thinking especially with the Colossus).

Yes many are going to fire all three days now but a lot of recs are only planning on one bullet/one day and now they are spread out over 3 days instead of 2.

For the MS and Milly, Day 2 falling on a Monday instead of a Sunday might be a detractor for some people thinking about playing them.

Agreed. Since they started paying out 15% of the field the min cashes have become awful.

I prefer longer levels. Especially when we start with few chips like the WSOP Senior and Super Senior events where you start with 20,000 chips but have 1 hour levels.

The best way to increase min cashes is to reduce the % of players who cash. 15% is ridiculously high in my opinion. I'm used to 12% usually in the US and sometimes 10%. In Prague at Rebuy Stars it was 10% of initial buy ins and 5% of rebuys so it ended up usually at about 8%. Which meant the min cashes were very high.

15% is probably a bit high. It was introduced, I think, in order to allow events to get in the money day 1. This is a good thing. And perhaps that becomes difficult with 12.5% and hour long levels. Another reason why day 1 doesn’t have to be that slow.

I agree that 20k chips is too little in modern poker, but I’m not sure anything above 40k is at all necessary. Even 30k is probably fine as long as levels aren’t skipped.

It’s not easy to create a perfect structure since there are always competing interests. But I think structures can remain good as far as depth is concerned but still be better from a playability and ROI on time invested standpoint. Who really wants to put in 16 hours of poker and get nothing for it? Poker tournaments are always going to be a lottery to some degree, but it doesn’t have to be as big a lottery as it is now. And really, outside of the minuscule number of players who actually win these things, who would complain if they were structured to benefit those who cash in a more meaningful way?

30K starting chips and 40 minute levels day 1 might be the sweet spot. If you notice the $5K Senior championship they amped it to 50,000 starting stack and 40 / 60 min levels. BIG question is what will the level structures be for the events. As I recall it used to be that the money bubble was broken level 12 or 13 in the Hour events and that has basically slipped back a level to 13-14 with the larger fields. Starting chips aren't as impactful as the level structure advance. Realize I started playing the WSOP in a the Chip for a $1 entry fee days. $1500 fee got you 1,500 chips but you also started out at $25/$25 blinds unheard of in modern play. Personally, I have no issue with the Mini cash at 15% of the field (seems like that began to change +5 years ago now up from 12%) I would prefer (as has been mentioned above by others) they strip some money out of the often top heavy 1 thru 3 positions. WSOP marketing likes to highlight BIG money winners while it actually is better for the health of the game to spread it out a bit more. It takes a lot of SKILL (and some luck) to make a final table....... but 1- 3 is more LUCK than skill IMO.

BBA smoothes out the structures a lot.

That along with 11-12% field min cash goes a long way to a better tournament experience.

Making the money and winning half your buyin does not add up to the 12+ hours of play. A few more hours would get you 2x or better with a lower % field min cash.

And it's reasonably straightforward to setup a geometric payout model.

Are you using this in a Game Theory context ? Example if you have the time.

It's simply the geometric growth over N places, with p1 the min cash and pn the winners cash. Use Excel solver to determine either min cash or winner's cash by setting the constraint = sum of projected payouts match the prize pool.

Example: assume 5 places paid, with winner getting $5,000. Prize pool is $8,883, so min cash is solved at $200.

Growth is equal for each place. Taking log(5000) - log(200) and dividing that by 4, each place is then paid as follows:

5th: $200
4th: $447
3rd: $1,000
2nd: $2,236
1st: $5,000

Prise pool: $8,883

Of course big events do not pay out in small increments due to players gaming the system, so the solver would need to take that into consideration (e.g. 450-485 pays $800, 414-449 pays $900, etc).

For single day, or at least continuous events (no bag-up), this sort of formula makes sense. But I’m not sure it does for multi-day events, especially those of the large field variety we see at the WSOP. I feel like a formula which is based on the logistical bubbles of making the next day would be better. Significantly fewer pay jumps, but more meaningful ones. At least till the final table, or the last day of the event, whichever comes first.

I’m still brainstorming it a bit, but maybe I’ll have more details to share at some point.

In the WSOP Senior event over the years sometimes you are in the money at the end of Day 1 and sometimes you are not and its early Day 2. I was always grateful to cash in day 1 though. One time I had like 13 blinds towards the end of day 1 (we were playing the last 5 hands of the day) and we weren't going to cash until Day 2. A woman who had played tight raised UTG and I was UTG+1 with JJ so I shoved figuring I would likely lose but at least wouldn't be short stacked out of the money on Day 2 where I could probably delay going all in in time to cash but cashing wouldn't even have doubled the buy in. So she tanked and open folded QQ and said she wanted to make it to day 2 (in fact she had over 36 blinds so that wasn't actually the reason she folded...)

I appreciate events that don't make you come into Day 2 not yet in the money and the Venetian has changed their payout structure to do that (previously I had failed to cash on some day 2's).

But I do think that the WSOP should go back to paying 12% of the field and improve the min cashes.

what do you mean by that? is that a special crunch time for wsop given tables and logistics, or do you mean the likely crowd size?

I don't understand why a solid payout structure which minimizes ICM as much as possible should be sacrificed for player convenience.

Everybody knows going in that the payouts may not hit first day. This was no issue at all when min cashes started at 12%, and frankly everybody expected to come back next day to make the money. Of course the min payouts were significantly higher then so that helped a lot.

Of course the issue is that all players want different things from tourney blind and payout structures, and everyone thinks their preference is what everyone wants ha.

Lots of serious players/pros have the akashenk approach, which is let's get to the money fast and then see. But the problem is, the huge majority of weekend warriors are playing one or two tournaments and want to "get their money's worth" and get several hours worth of playing time for their buyin. No one likes to book a vacation around a tournament and you're eliminated before noon on the first day.

Go ask a 1/2 or 1/3 NL table what they want in a tourney structure and they will say "lots of chips" and "slow blinds going up". And a lot of people really ignore skipped levels which are by far the biggest impact on a structure. I can make a tourney with 20k start stack and 20 min levels way deeper late than one with 50k start stack and 60 min levels.

Of course, you have to evaluate all 3 things, Starting chips, blind levels, blind times. I have always used the formula I read about many years ago in the the book The Tournament Formula (pretty sure that's it) I made a spreadsheet for calculations a long time ago I use.

It's the same as buying a car, Price, trade in value and interest rate are all in play, the salesman can give you what you want on 2 of them and screw you on the other and still get what they want.

Also important is calculating how many hands of 30bb+ you would have if you blinded off.

I agree, but many don't! I stood in a reg line and heard multiple recs talking about how the $250 deepstack was a better structure than the $1000 bracelet event b/c it had more chips. Zero thought on level length or skipped levels, just MOAR CHIPZ.

Would you be willing and able to share your spreadsheet after you crunch the numbers for the events this year?

The week of June 24 is low buy in week. Tuesday is the 600 Deep stack championship, Wednesday is another Deep stack event like the daily but at 600, Thursday is the 500 Salute to Warriors which actually has one of the better structures, and Friday, Sat, and Sunday is 400 Colossus.
Huge fields every day.
Long rebuy lines because of the low buy in point.

Logistics and crowd size are issues.

When the structures are released, I will probably run some of the popular ones and post results.

Someone questioned adding a third flight will bring 8k in MS to 12-15k.

If they allow reentry (1x per flight) like looks written then absolutely. There will be people firing 6 bullets into this thing when originally was 2 max

Normally I would want to play that weekend but the thought of having to wait in line if you need to fire a 2nd bullet is gross. I wish wsop would make it easier to sign up online where you could pay with a credit card after you busted and you could go to a table and sign up for your 2nd bullet in a quick manner and not wait in line.

I wonder how many people actually wait in line? I busted colussus last year early and just went lol no way I’m waiting in that line for a $400 tourny.


Anyone wanna comment on the $1500 shootout? Im considering playing it bc I find the beat your table factor cool and just a sit n go. Idk I find those format cool and wish shootouts were more commonplace in festival series nowadays. Just wondering if the structure is good? It looks solid with 40 min levels based on last year structure. Great structure? No but it’s solid for a sit n go.

Making a couple assumptions on the above seems that 54 players at a $200 buy in (17.5% rake) would give roughly give you the $8900 prize pool.

You are suggesting that the 5th place would get their entry fee back ? and first gets 56% of the pool and second 25% and that is a Reasonable payout model ? Even reducing the payouts to 5 players ( call it 10% of the field ) again assuming a "winner" has to get at LEAST his buyin back (something else I have never seen in practice )

Possibly I am taking your example entirely to literally and I have not tried to expand it to a typical (if there is such a thing ) WSOP event and therefore maybe guilty of gross oversimplification for your intent.

This is one of the GREATEST benefits of Caesars Diamond status. Even in the biggest events during the busiest rebuy periods you can be in and out of the VIP line in a MAXIMUM of 15 minutes with a new entry. Worth its wait in gold. It doesn't help the line waiting for to get a reentry seat but you can get to that line QUICK. The no resort fees financially valuable, the free valet is appreciated the $100 meal voucher is nice........... but not dealing with those ugly cashier lines ........... well that is truly PRICELESS.

The online entry works just as well as Diamond, with zero risk of the VIP line being longer than you want. Still can’t fade the line for seat card. I got lucky in Colossus and was back in less than 15 minutes. Didn’t re-enter the DeepStack Championship bc line was gross for seat, despite being Diamond and set up for online purchase.

This is a benefit, but it is not nearly the benefit it once was. In any case, re entry still requires standing in a line to get your stack after you stand in line to register(or do so online).