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Old 09-14-2021, 10:43 AM   #651
RealMcCoy
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by prairiebreeze View Post
The question was who DO you believe. It's a simple question.
Respectfully intended - the question is to broad to provide a meaningful answer.
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:52 AM   #652
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Respectfully intended - the question is to broad to provide a meaningful answer.
That poster made the declaration that he didn't believe the CDC. So I asked who he does believe, with an implication that I was referring to where that poster goes to get what they view as legitimate medical information.

It could be CNN, Fox News, Santa Claus, Jim Carrey, Sofia Vergara... I was just looking for a simple answer. Oh well.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:03 PM   #653
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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There's the issue. The CDC is extremely biased. I don't believe anything they say now. At any given time they might be telling the truth, or not.
But that issue is the specific thing I was addressing in the post you quoted. Even if they make mistakes, are biased, and have a lot to learn, the consensus of the experts is still by far your best bet!

Personally I doubt they are "extremely biased" and deliberately lying 50% of the time. If there was a way to bet on that, I would!
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:41 PM   #654
RealMcCoy
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by prairiebreeze View Post
That poster made the declaration that he didn't believe the CDC. So I asked who he does believe, with an implication that I was referring to where that poster goes to get what they view as legitimate medical information.

It could be CNN, Fox News, Santa Claus, Jim Carrey, Sofia Vergara... I was just looking for a simple answer. Oh well.
I will let Pig speak for himself ............ Personally in the past right wrong or otherwise I would have considered the CDC the "Gold Standard" I no longer operate under the illusion that they are an unbiased scientific source. All data is subject to interpretation and skewing or drawing of inaccurate conclusions and previously I trusted them to not put their thumb on the scale...... I no longer do so. I still read MAYO, John Hopkins, as well as contra sources such as Geert Vanden Bossche and Michael Levitt both of which have rather stellar academic backgrounds and listen to commentaries from various media sources. Do I have the scientific background (as G Raymer argued) to fully appreciate the information and technical aspects of the discussion ABSOLUTELY NOT But at the end of the day I can make an semi informed decision FOR MYSELF that I am comfortable with and NOT shove that decision down the throats of others as being the ONLY proper decision.
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:25 PM   #655
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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I will let Pig speak for himself ............ Personally in the past right wrong or otherwise I would have considered the CDC the "Gold Standard" I no longer operate under the illusion that they are an unbiased scientific source. All data is subject to interpretation and skewing or drawing of inaccurate conclusions and previously I trusted them to not put their thumb on the scale...... I no longer do so. I still read MAYO, John Hopkins, as well as contra sources such as Geert Vanden Bossche and Michael Levitt both of which have rather stellar academic backgrounds and listen to commentaries from various media sources. Do I have the scientific background (as G Raymer argued) to fully appreciate the information and technical aspects of the discussion ABSOLUTELY NOT But at the end of the day I can make an semi informed decision FOR MYSELF that I am comfortable with and NOT shove that decision down the throats of others as being the ONLY proper decision.
And that's all well and good. All I would say in defense of CDC and others is that they're learning at the same rate as the rest of us. They've all been wrong at varying levels at some point in the last 18 months.

I guess I'd categorize "thumb on the scale" as being hyperbolic, but if that's how you feel, we will respectfully disagree on that point.

Having had COVID, feeling like you're going to die is the worst. It ****ing sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, especially with vaccines that can minimize the damage should you get it. The bad outcomes are mostly avoidable now.
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:44 PM   #656
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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And that's all well and good. All I would say in defense of CDC and others is that they're learning at the same rate as the rest of us. They've all been wrong at varying levels at some point in the last 18 months.

I guess I'd categorize "thumb on the scale" as being hyperbolic, but if that's how you feel, we will respectfully disagree on that point.

Having had COVID, feeling like you're going to die is the worst. It ****ing sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, especially with vaccines that can minimize the damage should you get it. The bad outcomes are mostly avoidable now.
I am not in any manner attempting to dissuade you or anyone else from getting the vaccination (or in your case the booster if that is your choice).

The thumb on the scale comment is hyperbolic to a limited degree but let me provide an example. As a person who has contracted COVID what additional protection did you derive from the vaccination ? Was it statistically meaningful ? It's not like the CDC makes it easy to determine - they don't. They say Get a Jab AFTER 90 days and they still have provided no detailed information (that I am aware of ) of natural immunity factors. That is what I mean by thumb on the scale ( I will avoid commentary on Fauci entirely as he is NOT the CDC directly).
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:03 PM   #657
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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I am not in any manner attempting to dissuade you or anyone else from getting the vaccination (or in your case the booster if that is your choice).

The thumb on the scale comment is hyperbolic to a limited degree but let me provide an example. As a person who has contracted COVID what additional protection did you derive from the vaccination ? Was it statistically meaningful ? It's not like the CDC makes it easy to determine - they don't. They say Get a Jab AFTER 90 days and they still have provided no detailed information (that I am aware of ) of natural immunity factors. That is what I mean by thumb on the scale ( I will avoid commentary on Fauci entirely as he is NOT the CDC directly).
My antibodies were monitored after I had COVID which was April last year. I shed antibodies quickly. I was down to zero before the vaccines were released. So for me specifically, it's very meaningful. Can't speak for those who are dealing with it today. My opinion is that they probably don't have a firm grasp of the value of natural immunity - it's likely a TON of variance and dependent on your specific set of health conditions. Correlation could be non-existent. It's likely too early to tell without a mountain of statistical caveats.
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:49 PM   #658
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by prairiebreeze View Post
That poster made the declaration that he didn't believe the CDC. So I asked who he does believe, with an implication that I was referring to where that poster goes to get what they view as legitimate medical information.

It could be CNN, Fox News, Santa Claus, Jim Carrey, Sofia Vergara... I was just looking for a simple answer. Oh well.
Trust, like fear is a personal matter. But for me, the problem with all of the sources you mention is that they all have a point of view. They are not simply dispensers of information. They are advocates for their particular point of view. News outlets no longer report the news. They now gear their reportage in whichever manner suits their target audience. So pretty much the only time I really trust the cable news outlets is when they are reporting the same thing... which is almost never nowadays.

Maybe this is how things always were. But I do feel there has been a serious erosion of journalistic standards in recent decades. Journalists are supposed to be skeptical of everything. It seems like now they are only skeptical of certain things, depending on their viewpoint.

So my 2-cent advice to people not knowing who to trust is... listed to whoever you want to listen to. But always be skeptical of what you hear. Skepticism does not mean disregard, or ignorance. Its the opposite since it means taking an active role in processing and acting on what you are being told, instead of just eating the meat which has been cut up and chewed for you.
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Old 09-14-2021, 06:38 PM   #659
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Trust, like fear is a personal matter. But for me, the problem with all of the sources you mention is that they all have a point of view. They are not simply dispensers of information. They are advocates for their particular point of view. News outlets no longer report the news. They now gear their reportage in whichever manner suits their target audience. So pretty much the only time I really trust the cable news outlets is when they are reporting the same thing... which is almost never nowadays.

Maybe this is how things always were. But I do feel there has been a serious erosion of journalistic standards in recent decades. Journalists are supposed to be skeptical of everything. It seems like now they are only skeptical of certain things, depending on their viewpoint.

So my 2-cent advice to people not knowing who to trust is... listed to whoever you want to listen to. But always be skeptical of what you hear. Skepticism does not mean disregard, or ignorance. Its the opposite since it means taking an active role in processing and acting on what you are being told, instead of just eating the meat which has been cut up and chewed for you.
I agree that a very healthy sense of skepticism is vital in these times, no matter what you are reading/listening to/watching. Particularly with prime time TV - I don't see anyone even remotely trustworthy on any part of the political spectrum.
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Old 09-15-2021, 05:21 AM   #660
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Re: 2021 WSOP

So I think most of us inferred that the reason WSOP did not require dealers (and staff?) to get the jab is because they refused to take it. If Biden follows through on his threat to lean on the Department of Labor to make OSHA issue a directive that all businesses with 100 employees or more (WSOP certainly qualifies) make the jab mandatory, what about the dealers? Do some of them up and leave in the middle of the Series?

I suppose the WSOP may let them just test, but they didn't give that option to the players. Also, testing may be as distasteful to the dealers as the jab.
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Old 09-15-2021, 06:53 AM   #661
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
So I think most of us inferred that the reason WSOP did not require dealers (and staff?) to get the jab is because they refused to take it. If Biden follows through on his threat to lean on the Department of Labor to make OSHA issue a directive that all businesses with 100 employees or more (WSOP certainly qualifies) make the jab mandatory, what about the dealers? Do some of them up and leave in the middle of the Series?

I suppose the WSOP may let them just test, but they didn't give that option to the players. Also, testing may be as distasteful to the dealers as the jab.
I haven’t looked at it very closely, but I believe using the OSHA rules is the only mechanism by which the federal government can issue such a mandate in the U.S. And it doesn’t appear to have solid legal standing.

That being said, the only germane thing about it with respect to the WSOP is if the mandate has a compliance deadline which coincides with the WSOP and whether or not the WSOP has announced it intends to comply.

Check out the links I dug up a few posts ago on this topic. They discuss these issues, including timelines. My speculation is that this mandate probably won’t effect the WSOP. It appears to be too soon. And I would also speculate the WSOP would be reticent to comply because it will be both more difficult to get dealers and manage the dealers they have.

So if I had to put money on it, I would bet on this not being in place for the WSOP. However, I didn’t think the WSOP would issue a vaccine mandate either, so I could be wrong here too. I guess someone should ask them what they intend to do vis-a-vis the federal mandate to get a clearer picture.
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Old 09-15-2021, 04:18 PM   #662
RealMcCoy
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
So I think most of us inferred that the reason WSOP did not require dealers (and staff?) to get the jab is because they refused to take it. If Biden follows through on his threat to lean on the Department of Labor to make OSHA issue a directive that all businesses with 100 employees or more (WSOP certainly qualifies) make the jab mandatory, what about the dealers? Do some of them up and leave in the middle of the Series?

I suppose the WSOP may let them just test, but they didn't give that option to the players. Also, testing may be as distasteful to the dealers as the jab.
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I haven’t looked at it very closely, but I believe using the OSHA rules is the only mechanism by which the federal government can issue such a mandate in the U.S. And it doesn’t appear to have solid legal standing.
......... And I would also speculate the WSOP would be reticent to comply because it will be both more difficult to get dealers and manage the dealers they have.

......I guess someone should ask them what they intend to do vis-a-vis the federal mandate to get a clearer picture.
Briefly
1) This is the Executive Order ......... https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...ral-employees/

2) Note the task force has 2 more days to provide guidance for federal agency implementation.

3) 100 EMPLOYEE ....... Are the majority of the dealer's an EMPLOYEE ? or a Contract worker ? HUGE legal difference. Also you should note that the EXECUTIVE ORDER does not reference the 100 employee issue whatsoever......... President Biden in his address did and he is directing OSHA to implement rules to that effect. https://www.natlawreview.com/article...ndard-covid-19

Last edited by RealMcCoy; 09-15-2021 at 04:24 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 09-15-2021, 05:57 PM   #663
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by RealMcCoy View Post
Briefly
1) This is the Executive Order ......... https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...ral-employees/

2) Note the task force has 2 more days to provide guidance for federal agency implementation.

3) 100 EMPLOYEE ....... Are the majority of the dealer's an EMPLOYEE ? or a Contract worker ? HUGE legal difference. Also you should note that the EXECUTIVE ORDER does not reference the 100 employee issue whatsoever......... President Biden in his address did and he is directing OSHA to implement rules to that effect. https://www.natlawreview.com/article...ndard-covid-19
I don’t know what the future is for this with companies which have not already signaled they will implement their own mandates. But I would be very surprised if the WSOP complies. There seem to be too many roadblocks and no clear indication they have to in the timeframe of the next couple months.

Last edited by akashenk; 09-15-2021 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 09-15-2021, 09:02 PM   #664
The Executioner
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2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by prairiebreeze View Post
I agree that a very healthy sense of skepticism is vital in these times, no matter what you are reading/listening to/watching. Particularly with prime time TV - I don't see anyone even remotely trustworthy on any part of the political spectrum.
As a professional sceptic, I quite agree.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:33 AM   #665
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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I haven’t looked at it very closely, but I believe using the OSHA rules is the only mechanism by which the federal government can issue such a mandate in the U.S. And it doesn’t appear to have solid legal standing.

That being said, the only germane thing about it with respect to the WSOP is if the mandate has a compliance deadline which coincides with the WSOP and whether or not the WSOP has announced it intends to comply.

Check out the links I dug up a few posts ago on this topic. They discuss these issues, including timelines. My speculation is that this mandate probably won’t effect the WSOP. It appears to be too soon. And I would also speculate the WSOP would be reticent to comply because it will be both more difficult to get dealers and manage the dealers they have.

So if I had to put money on it, I would bet on this not being in place for the WSOP. However, I didn’t think the WSOP would issue a vaccine mandate either, so I could be wrong here too. I guess someone should ask them what they intend to do vis-a-vis the federal mandate to get a clearer picture.
True enough. I had been watching the OSHA website hoping to see something there, but haven't so far. Meanwhile, AZ has already filed their lawsuit and may get it in front of a judge for a TRO before OSHA even finishes writing their regs.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:50 AM   #666
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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As a professional sceptic, I quite agree.
Professional? Where can I apply for that job?
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Old 09-16-2021, 08:55 AM   #667
JDPuopolo
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Re: 2021 WSOP

Is there a separate thread somewhere where there is a WSOP discussion that doesn't include vaccines/masks/covid? You know, poker stuff?
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:58 AM   #668
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Re: 2021 WSOP

It's hard to have a discussion about WSOP without those things, as they are a big part of it in many ways.
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:37 AM   #669
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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It's hard to have a discussion about WSOP without those things, as they are a big part of it in many ways.
It's the main theme. Get it? Main

But srsly, agree here. Hard to have poker discussions this year w/out the entire pandemic thing. It's what informs a lot of the set up to the poker, like player pools, number of players at a table, are you gonna get DQ'd because a dealer is unvaxxed, is Alex Foxen going to be at your table, stuff like that.
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Old 09-17-2021, 12:29 PM   #670
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Re: 2021 WSOP

It’s Milestone date of 17th September. Anyone who is planning to play WSOP from get go, today is the last day to get themselves vaccinated and be in compliance with WSOP requirements.

We stated our opinion in favor or against it. We praised WSOP or we criticized WSOP.

It is now time to discuss Poker,WSOP, Las Vegas, Rio etc in constructive way .

Now it’s time to express your knowledge and wisdom. Stay away from criticizing other people opinion and suggestions..

I just heard Matt Savage on podcast of RecPoker Community. When asked about WSOP’s rules about vaccination, he said “It is what it is . It is what WSOP/Ceasars decided. It is their tournament. Play by the Rule and enjoy “
We have so many great mind here with different kind of skillset, knowledge and wisdom.
Please help our 2+2 community with suggestions and guidance.
Let’s start different kind of debate/ Poles etc like fun.

There is a always a topic where everyone has some calculated guesstimate!

How many players will attend this year’s different Events compared to previous years.

2019 had following attendance for some of the popular events.
1, Big Event/(Reunion )….28371
2, Monster …………………..6035
3, Millionsire Maker………..8809
4, Senior ………………………5916
5, Super Senior ……………..2650
6, Mini Main………………….…5521
7 , Crazy 888…………………10185
8, 600 Deepstack……….….6140
9, Main Event …………………8569.

Depending on your interest what do you think the attendance will be ?
2021 IMO
1, Big Event/(Reunion )….12000
2, Monster …………………..5000
3, Millionsire Maker………..5000
4, Senior ………………………4500
5, Super Senior ……………..2500
6, Mini Main……………………5000
7 , Crazy 888…………………6000
8, 600 Deepstack……….….4000
9, Main Event …………………5500.

Anything close to this numbers,in my view will be a successful WSOP.
*You can add any event of your liking to the list or guesstimate.

Last edited by riverph7; 09-17-2021 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:37 PM   #671
tomshooter
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Re: 2021 WSOP

I wonder if the senior and super-senior will see the biggest drop due to the Covid situation. After all they are most likely to be effected even if they are double vaccinated.
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:52 PM   #672
RealMcCoy
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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I wonder if the senior and super-senior will see the biggest drop due to the Covid situation. After all they are most likely to be effected even if they are double vaccinated.
Pure speculation but yes

Senior over under 4500

Super Senior over under 2000
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:58 PM   #673
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Pure speculation but yes

Senior over under 4500

Super Senior over under 2000
I am giving Super Senior less reduction % wise as Senior Event’s attendees makes up built in crowd for Super Senior Event.
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Old 09-17-2021, 05:00 PM   #674
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Re: 2021 WSOP

I'm interested in knowing how they plan on checking vaccination status for cash games. Are they going to check at the doors to the Pavillion Room, check when you sign up for a game, check when you get to the table, etc? I doubt it would be at the doors as that would cause ridiculously long lines during big tournaments. There's also the question of if they will even have enough dealers to deal cash games.
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Old 09-17-2021, 05:40 PM   #675
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Re: 2021 WSOP

They won't even let you into the convention center area without the badge of approval.
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