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Old 07-19-2021, 01:35 PM   #276
RealMcCoy
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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arghhhh... that must suck
Just the price we pay live here and be a United States citizen.
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Old 07-19-2021, 02:19 PM   #277
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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I sure hope not. I would love for there to be a fall WSOP every year. But imagine due to summer traffic and people's schedules opening up during summer, they'll probably return to normal next year.
Fall is usually busier with conventions in LV anyhow, so I doubt very much this will stay during that timeframe. Before this year, I would have preferred Fall. But now that I see what is going in with Raider home weekend prices... no thank you. Summer is fine w/me.
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Old 07-19-2021, 07:08 PM   #278
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Re: 2021 WSOP

Do people actually like these 5 day structures at the WSOP for 1k and 1.5ks? Seems excessive.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:08 PM   #279
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
Do people actually like these 5 day structures at the WSOP for 1k and 1.5ks? Seems excessive.
Yes, only a few of them are 5 days, most are 3. And the ones that are 5 days are really only 3 days except for final 5 players. There are 2 starting days, then they play 2 days with the field combined down to 5 players. So only 5 players play more than 3 days.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:50 PM   #280
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Re: 2021 WSOP

I keep hearing of tournaments with multiple days, but never get any personal evidence. Sigh.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:33 AM   #281
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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I keep hearing of tournaments with multiple days, but never get any personal evidence. Sigh.
I know that feeling.

But after more than 10 years of WSOP, I broke through on the Big Fitty in 2019. Unfortunately I played poorly after that because I settled for "making day 3" being a success. My new goal is to play every hand from the first hand to the last hand as well as I can (which really isn't all that well). It's difficult to maintain concentration the whole time.

Hang in there. But if you want to cheat, just late register for the Monster Stack. You only have to make 1 or 2 levels to get to Day 2. I did that too so I actually made it past Day 1 in TWO events in 2019!
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:12 PM   #282
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
Do people actually like these 5 day structures at the WSOP for 1k and 1.5ks? Seems excessive.
I don't, personally. Anything which is structured to take more than 3 days is excessive at sub $2K IMO. And having to make it through the better part of two days to cash is also quite annoying. Some of it is logistics (needing longer break periods to handle the field size, for instance), but the WSOP definitely takes a leisurely pace. Do day 1s really need to be 60 minute levels? I think 50 would be plenty to allow for a good structure and break things down faster. They could even bump up the chips (ie from 25K to 30K) and still gain the benefit of the shorter levels.

Once some significant multiple of buy-in in the payout structure is reached, if people want to grind for every big pay jump into life-changing money, then fine. I don't really care about the pace then and I think most people would probably agree. But day 1 needs to be a bit faster and reach the money sooner, otherwise the return on time invested suffers.

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I keep hearing of tournaments with multiple days, but never get any personal evidence. Sigh.
Lol
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:59 PM   #283
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Re: 2021 WSOP

Almost every WSOP 1k and 1500 has either 30 or 40 minute levels on day 1
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Old 07-20-2021, 04:25 PM   #284
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
Almost every WSOP 1k and 1500 has either 30 or 40 minute levels on day 1
That's what I don't like about it. They charge big bucks to enter (I refer not to the entry fees but rather, the big bites they take out of them), then set up a structure designed to wipe out as many players as possible, as quickly as possible. Might as well play bingo (lower house edge!).

I'm amazed that people don't consider the fees to be important. They're what, over 10% now? Hard to win in the long run, or to put it another way, CET will be the only winner (oh wait, I forgot about the IRS).
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Old 07-20-2021, 06:06 PM   #285
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Re: 2021 WSOP

You see the issue, though, right? Just above my post is someone who thinks they are too slow. There is always a delicate balance, and tons of players are going to complain no matter what.

On the "standard" 1500 structure this year, coming back from the break 4 hours in, a start stack is still over 30 blinds (25k start, coming to 400/800).

Then 60 minute levels on day 2 and 3. Hard to call that a crapshoot or unbeatable at 11% or whatever.

Not to mention events like Monster Stack for $1500 or the Double Stack $1000 that has 60 minute levels and 40k start stack. Ten hours in, a start stack is 20 bigs. That is a LOT of play.

So they seem to be having some structures that cater to multiple groups.
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Old 07-20-2021, 09:52 PM   #286
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Re: 2021 WSOP

Standard bingo rake is 25%. You can beat it playing optimal strategy, but only by a very thin margin.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:15 AM   #287
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Re: 2021 WSOP

The Big Fitty was supposed to be a special event, thus the big stack and 60 minute levels. I loved it. There were still 4 digits of players when I went out on Day 3, so yeah, 5 days were probably needed. They schedule these so if they hit the final table on Day 4, they end it there, no matter how early. Then Day 5 is just the FT. I think they got a LOT more players than they expected, so they were pretty glad they made it 5 days from the start.

Given the choice between crappy structures/short levels and good structures/long levels, it strikes me funny that people would choose the first.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:21 AM   #288
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Standard bingo rake is 25%. You can beat it playing optimal strategy, but only by a very thin margin.
Actually, in Vegas, bingo is a loss leader and Gaming Control Board figures have consistently shown a return to the players of about 104%.

As far as "strategy" goes, the only strategy is timing your play so that there's little opposition and your entry fee is an overlay.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:35 AM   #289
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Actually, in Vegas, bingo is a loss leader and Gaming Control Board figures have consistently shown a return to the players of about 104%.

As far as "strategy" goes, the only strategy is timing your play so that there's little opposition and your entry fee is an overlay.
You’re right about the “strategy” but where do you get your numbers from? Wizard of Odds says it’s about an 11% house advantage.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/bingo/
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Old 07-21-2021, 11:21 AM   #290
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Given the choice between crappy structures/short levels and good structures/long levels, it strikes me funny that people would choose the first.
One argument is hourly rate. As a serious but recreational player who loves playing tournaments, I love deep structures, but akashenk enumerated some arguments - sucks to play 2 days to mincash (or worse, bubble), means you missed other tourneys, likely make more hourly at cash, etc.

Also the deeper a tourney is, the longer it takes people to bust, thus more dealers needed, thus it costs the casino more, thus more rake.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:12 PM   #291
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
Almost every WSOP 1k and 1500 has either 30 or 40 minute levels on day 1
Not the Millionaire Maker. Or the Monster Stack. Or the DoubleStack. Or the 1111 One Drop. Or the Ladies event. Or the Seniors event. But yeah, almost every other one.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:17 PM   #292
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
Given the choice between crappy structures/short levels and good structures/long levels, it strikes me funny that people would choose the first.
This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of examples of really good structures in Vegas which don't require 5-day schedules. Even accounting for large field sized, 4 days should be plenty. But not at the WSOP.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:20 PM   #293
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Re: 2021 WSOP

So 4 open events total? It definitely makes sense to me to offer a variety of events.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:31 PM   #294
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
So 4 open events total? It definitely makes sense to me to offer a variety of events.
Yes, but other than the 1111, its the three featured weekend events in that price range which drive tons of traffic. Even more reason to loosen day one up a little. The weekend warriors won't care about a slightly faster day one structure if it means getting into the money faster and not having to potentially miss work on Monday for a small-cash.
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Old 07-21-2021, 09:31 PM   #295
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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You’re right about the “strategy” but where do you get your numbers from? Wizard of Odds says it’s about an 11% house advantage.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/bingo/
Actually, in that article, he reports a Gaming Control Board figure for 2012 of a 3.24% casino win overall. He mentions one bingo room manager reporting an 11% hold.

I went back and dug up the figures. Turns out that the "exotic" bingo bets like cashball and the single-card "bonus" games (that you usually have to buy a separate card to play) have a huge house hold--well over 20%. And most players play them. The straight games themselves are +EV for the player. My 104% return figure is about as old as the Wizard's, and refers to one's EV from playing the regular bingo games and of course, the coveralls that end every session. Turns out, by the way, that the coveralls are what make those sessions +EV; the regular games are big losers for the players.

Things might be different now, ten years later, but one of my favorite advantage plays is going to a bingo game late at night, one that pays the same for coveralls regardless of color of card, and buying a bunch of the lowest level of card. You can do a head count and will often find that they're paying out twice what they've collected--or more. (Of course, the opposite is true, that a big, crowded room will pay the house much more than the house pays them.)

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program.
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:40 AM   #296
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Re: 2021 WSOP

In before the bingo boom.
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Old 07-22-2021, 03:54 AM   #297
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of examples of really good structures in Vegas which don't require 5-day schedules. Even accounting for large field sized, 4 days should be plenty. But not at the WSOP.
Name one with an equivalent prize pool. There aren't any.
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Old 07-22-2021, 06:33 AM   #298
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Name one with an equivalent prize pool. There aren't any.
What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about improving the WSOP.
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:15 PM   #299
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Re: 2021 WSOP

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Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
Yes, but other than the 1111, its the three featured weekend events in that price range which drive tons of traffic. Even more reason to loosen day one up a little. The weekend warriors won't care about a slightly faster day one structure if it means getting into the money faster and not having to potentially miss work on Monday for a small-cash.
I really disagree. Most weekend warriors who build an entire vacation around coming out and playing Milly Maker or whatever absolutely do not want to be playing push-fold poker at 2:00 pm on day 1 of the tourney. No one books a trip to come play Milly Maker on a Saturday with plans of being at work on Monday. Come on.

I would bet if you fired an instant poll as Milly Maker tips off "OK guys, vote now, do you want 30 minute, 40 minute, or 60 minute levels?" the results would be something like 75% 60 min, 20% 40 min, 5% 30 min.

I played the $800 Venetian Ultimate Stack last month which had a very deep structure for an $800 (40 min levels, 40k start stack, 100/100 first level), and every single comment about it was that they liked the structure. Zero players expressed that they wished they had less chips or 30 min levels instead. I also just played a 4 flight $240 at Choctaw that had 4000 runners, and it had 30 min levels, 10k start stack, and TONS of players were complaining about it being too fast (level 5 was 200/400/400, so come back from first break with start stack being 25 bigs) despite the fact that if it was any slower, you're looking at a 4 day (3 days of play) tourney for a $240 due to huge field.

You always GREATLY overestimate how many rec players share your desire for faster day 1s, even if most of them would actually benefit from it, EV-wise. Recs mostly HATE playing "significant" pots early in tourneys.
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:23 PM   #300
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Re: 2021 WSOP

The same way people raved about the Big50 $500 at WSOP 2 years ago. But this year the opening $500 is crappy for sure.
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