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Old 01-27-2018, 11:42 AM   #126
carlo
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
Conjectured by whom? And using what methodology? 5-6 hands per hour would represent a minimum of 14% and perhaps as high as 25% increase in the number of hands per hour being dealt (depending on how many hands per hour you get dealt normally). You seriously think changing the ante-ing procedure will generate those kinds of gains? I mean, does collecting antes really take roughly 1/5 the length of time of the entire hand? I think that's a bit far-fetched.

In any case, there really should be no need to have conjecture. These venues run tons of tournaments. They should track how many hands they get in using the old system and compare it to the BB ante-system. It would not be hard to set up an experiment which accounts for variables and gets data from a large enough sample.
Its been conjectured by the Aria tournament people, in part I'm sure to justify the practice. That's why I used the term "conjecture", and if you think they should run an experiment to justify it then go go forth.

I don't remember where I've read it but they have come out also with "everybody loves it" as pat of the justification.

Also, recently, the Aria is running $240 turbos in the evening of their high roller events sometime in the spring and they said the same thing"everybody loves it" (the $240 turbo, lol) .


As I said, it is easier on the dealer in the collection of antes and in a sense it will speed up play but be clear; in no way am I justifying this procedure for I have a level of skepticism (also known as distrust) as to any player benefits and even to its negative for the players. After all "everybody loves it" according to the powers at be.

I'm with you on this but I do have some experience as I played in an Aria tournament over the holidays and they used the single ante system and didn't notice any appreciable difficulty relative to the old system. That, of course is no test, as I played prior to my examination of the factors involved.

A single ante system can be utilized with any of the old structures and so it would be good to carefully evaluate the old versus the new for the entire structure may have been changed with the single ante and so it may be illusory to believe its the old with a facilitated ante take.

As you may well remember, I compared a Wynn (Venetian ?) $240 single ante with the Goliath structure, a structure which began antes at level #2 and up to level #11 they pretty much were the same . As I noted both of these structures were faster early on but slowed up at higher levels.

I prefer no antes for 3 levels, all things considered, takes me awhile to wake up. We have to be careful for it may be that we're buying a "pig in a poke".LOL
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Old 01-27-2018, 11:46 AM   #127
carlo
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Also, if there is any influence here, it would be nice to see the schedule of Wynn, Venetian, Aria during the summer as per Chris at the Goliath. If there is a single ante system being used you can be sure that comparisons will be made.
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Old 01-27-2018, 01:24 PM   #128
akashenk
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by carlo View Post
Also, if there is any influence here, it would be nice to see the schedule of Wynn, Venetian, Aria during the summer as per Chris at the Goliath. If there is a single ante system being used you can be sure that comparisons will be made.
I’m not sure about Wynn or Aria, but my understanding is Venetian will release their schedule in the next few weeks and I heard a rumor that there would be one or two events which will use the BB ante.
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Old 01-27-2018, 01:29 PM   #129
akashenk
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by carlo View Post
Its been conjectured by the Aria tournament people, in part I'm sure to justify the practice. That's why I used the term "conjecture", and if you think they should run an experiment to justify it then go go forth.

I don't remember where I've read it but they have come out also with "everybody loves it" as pat of the justification.

Also, recently, the Aria is running $240 turbos in the evening of their high roller events sometime in the spring and they said the same thing"everybody loves it" (the $240 turbo, lol) .


As I said, it is easier on the dealer in the collection of antes and in a sense it will speed up play but be clear; in no way am I justifying this procedure for I have a level of skepticism (also known as distrust) as to any player benefits and even to its negative for the players. After all "everybody loves it" according to the powers at be.

I'm with you on this but I do have some experience as I played in an Aria tournament over the holidays and they used the single ante system and didn't notice any appreciable difficulty relative to the old system. That, of course is no test, as I played prior to my examination of the factors involved.

A single ante system can be utilized with any of the old structures and so it would be good to carefully evaluate the old versus the new for the entire structure may have been changed with the single ante and so it may be illusory to believe its the old with a facilitated ante take.

As you may well remember, I compared a Wynn (Venetian ?) $240 single ante with the Goliath structure, a structure which began antes at level #2 and up to level #11 they pretty much were the same . As I noted both of these structures were faster early on but slowed up at higher levels.

I prefer no antes for 3 levels, all things considered, takes me awhile to wake up. We have to be careful for it may be that we're buying a "pig in a poke".LOL
Structure questions notwithstanding, I agree that “everyone loved it” is in all likelihood a lie. And I’m pretty sure anyone who finds themselves short stacked and having to pay a 2.5BB penalty for an unfortunate table break will also not “love it”.

I also agree some empirical evidence which demonstrates the benefits of this new ante-ing scheme would be appreciated, instead of marketing-like slogans from Aria or anyone else.
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Old 01-27-2018, 04:20 PM   #130
allergictobroke
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Does anyone know when registration for the Colossus or the giant event will open?

Will there be online registration? If not, what the best way to register?

Thanks
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Old 01-27-2018, 07:05 PM   #131
seiken_nick
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by allergictobroke View Post
Does anyone know when registration for the Colossus or the giant event will open?

Will there be online registration? If not, what the best way to register?

Thanks
On wsop.com it says registration will open in march
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:33 AM   #132
TDMarathon86
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Looks like structures for each event went up today, per the WSOP schedule site
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:57 AM   #133
Killer_Demo
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Has anybody played the Giant tournament? Did you like it?
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:23 AM   #134
Dr. Meh
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Colossus structure is crap again. First level of 25/25 so they can say it’s “200 bb to start.”
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:20 PM   #135
Bornontilt
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Are they going to have a nicer cash game section again this year or is it back to what it was prior to last year?
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:42 PM   #136
Hendricks
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
I’m not sure about Wynn or Aria, but my understanding is Venetian will release their schedule in the next few weeks and I heard a rumor that there would be one or two events which will use the BB ante.
Any truth in the rumor that the Venetian will be using some convention space this summer for the bigger field events?
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:19 PM   #137
Coug MJ
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Has anybody played the Giant tournament? Did you like it?
Yes. No, it felt like a bad home game.
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:09 AM   #138
carlo
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Any insight as to the payoff percentages , 15 % again ?
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:45 AM   #139
Edawger1
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Re: 2018 WSOP

I assume it is still 15% as all circuit events for this year are the same. I really like that they got rid of the antes for the first 4 levels (instead of just first 2) for all the 1k and 1.5k nlhe events
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:52 AM   #140
carlo
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Edawger1 View Post
I assume it is still 15% as all circuit events for this year are the same. I really like that they got rid of the antes for the first 4 levels (instead of just first 2) for all the 1k and 1.5k nlhe events
That was good, really surprised me and in a sense acts contrary to the big blind ante being presented by others. Still would like payoffs closer to 10 %, can only hope for a change.
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:34 PM   #141
Noz22
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Re: 2018 WSOP

1) the structures are changed quite a bit. An extra level and blinds delayed by two levels. Much more playable. Not a fan of 25/25 level as people totally overplay but a great improvement.

2) will still be 15% IMO

3) yes the Venetian has a large ballroom. Suppose to be great
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Old 01-30-2018, 02:05 AM   #142
Edawger1
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Noz22 View Post
1) the structures are changed quite a bit. An extra level and blinds delayed by two levels. Much more playable. Not a fan of 25/25 level as people totally overplay but a great improvement.

2) will still be 15% IMO

3) yes the Venetian has a large ballroom. Suppose to be great
The only tournament that has a 25/25 is the colossus. All other nlhe structures start at 25/50 just like the past couple years.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:10 PM   #143
Noz22
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Re: 2018 WSOP

True, but delaying the antes for two hours makes a huge difference. Pre-flop pot is 225 in the third hour instead of 475. 4.5% of initial stack instead of 9.5% in the $1000 events. Sure, I would like more chips, but the WSOP has to balance many parameters so I think this is a good compromise to try in 2018. I assume we will be going to BB antes soon and they can improve structures when they go here if they desire.
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Old 01-30-2018, 08:56 PM   #144
akashenk
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Hendricks View Post
Any truth in the rumor that the Venetian will be using some convention space this summer for the bigger field events?
Yes, they will be using convention space for most of their events over the summer. I doubt it will be over the entire 2+ month duration of their series, but I'm sure it will encompass all of the events between the MSPT 1100 and their ME.

I will post the schedule in the following thread when it is released. I would expect that to happen sometime in the next few weeks.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...anded-1696524/
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:54 AM   #145
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
Colossus structure is crap again. First level of 25/25 so they can say it’s “200 bb to start.”
The skill rating went up to 13.4 this year from 9.07 last year. But it was 18 the 1st year when they had 40 minute levels and a slower blind structure. Back in 2005, a 1500 NL event only started with 1500 in chips had a rating of 14.7. So at least 13.4 is a move back in the right direction.

The 1k events are now rated 27 up from 19.7 last year. The 1.5k event is now 35.46, up from 27.8 last year. The Giant is now 14.14 up from 12.3. The 1.5k monster stack is now 56.25 up from 50.71. The 1k with double chips is 42.54. The crazy 8s is 14.73 up from 13.41.
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:26 AM   #146
plog
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Re: 2018 WSOP

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The Giant is now 14.14 up from 12.3. The 1.5k monster stack is now 56.25 up from 50.71.... The crazy 8s is 14.73 up from 13.41.
I agree with the analysis about the Colossus, but I think the Moster and the Crazy 8's got worse. Can you recheck your numbers?

Using my system (http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.com/pokercalc/) where higher is better, it says the structures went like so:

Crazy 8s:

2016 = 50
2017 = 59
2018 = 54



Monster:

2015 = 136
2016 = 151
2017 = 151
2018 = 131


I looked at the structure sheets for the Monster 2017 compared to Monster 2018 and they are similar until level 18--in 2018 the ante is 1000 at that level, in 2017 it was 500. That explains why I say it got worse.

Can you explain what level caused your analysis to make it better in 2018 compared to 2017? Here's the Monster structure sheets for those years:


https://www.pokernews.com/tours/wsop.../structure.htm

http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresh...1487_16448.pdf
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:40 PM   #147
akashenk
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
I agree with the analysis about the Colossus, but I think the Moster and the Crazy 8's got worse. Can you recheck your numbers?

Using my system (http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.com/pokercalc/) where higher is better, it says the structures went like so:

Crazy 8s:

2016 = 50
2017 = 59
2018 = 54



Monster:

2015 = 136
2016 = 151
2017 = 151
2018 = 131


I looked at the structure sheets for the Monster 2017 compared to Monster 2018 and they are similar until level 18--in 2018 the ante is 1000 at that level, in 2017 it was 500. That explains why I say it got worse.

Can you explain what level caused your analysis to make it better in 2018 compared to 2017? Here's the Monster structure sheets for those years:


https://www.pokernews.com/tours/wsop.../structure.htm

http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresh...1487_16448.pdf
For the Monster, last year the antes started a little earlier and progressed slower. This year it looks like they are avoiding having more than one level where the ante is < 1/5 the SB (level 5 being the one).

In any case, I think your formula may be a bit flawed if the ante going from 1/6th SB to 1/3rd SB in a level when some 90+% of the field is gone is causing a 20% reduction in your rating. If I recall, you ignore, to a large extent, the very early levels since they don't account for much as far as cost is concerned. That makes sense. However, what happens in the very late levels is also not as important for the vast majority of the field. Of course, if there's some screwy structure that becomes a complete shove fest late and long before the final table is reached, well, that is something players may want to know about. But three are very few structures that fall apart like that. When considering structures, I think most people want to know what its like over the course of day 1 and perhaps up until the money is reached. That's when most of the "play" occurs. By looking at your results, it would seem like MS 2018 is significantly worse than MS 2017. I don't think the actual structure indicates that at all, so you may want to tinker with your formula.
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:47 PM   #148
deadlysyns
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Re: 2018 WSOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
For the Monster, last year the antes started a little earlier and progressed slower. This year it looks like they are avoiding having more than one level where the ante is < 1/5 the SB (level 5 being the one).

In any case, I think your formula may be a bit flawed if the ante going from 1/6th SB to 1/3rd SB in a level when some 90+% of the field is gone is causing a 20% reduction in your rating. If I recall, you ignore, to a large extent, the very early levels since they don't account for much as far as cost is concerned. That makes sense. However, what happens in the very late levels is also not as important for the vast majority of the field. Of course, if there's some screwy structure that becomes a complete shove fest late and long before the final table is reached, well, that is something players may want to know about. But three are very few structures that fall apart like that. When considering structures, I think most people want to know what its like over the course of day 1 and perhaps up until the money is reached. That's when most of the "play" occurs. By looking at your results, it would seem like MS 2018 is significantly worse than MS 2017. I don't think the actual structure indicates that at all, so you may want to tinker with your formula.
his formula is based on cost per orbit for each level.
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:22 PM   #149
plog
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Re: 2018 WSOP

I've looked at the 2017 & 2018 structures for the Monster and stand by my system's analysis--the 2018 is worse than the 2017 (not leaps and bounds, but it sure didn't get better).

Rather than derail this thread I started a new one if you want to discuss:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...-year-1703076/
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Old 02-02-2018, 01:40 AM   #150
deadlysyns
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Re: 2018 WSOP

at least EDC is not during the wsop this year.

https://lasvegas.electricdaisycarnival.com
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