And can someone explain how the Jamie Gold story has anything to do with chops? That's a lesson about staking agreements, not final table deals. A backer should prefer an aboveboard chop anyway, since then they would know exactly how much their player banked in a tourney. In the story above, the player getting $20K could lie to both the IRS AND his backer about how much he took home that day.[/QUOTE]

WSOP does not want to be judge and jury when chops goes wrong for someone involved that does not clearly understand.

What 4 or 5 players to discuss changes by the time they get to casheir .

First things first was WSOP wrong for not paying out Jamie Gold before they got
Court ordered based on an outsiders accusation? If JG would have did paperwork at the completion of ME it would not have an issue.

Fast Forward. In 2011 a bracelet event 4 guys do a chip deal 4th was getting @50K I the chop, well guess what he fought back and won the tourny and they all show up at the cashier.
The cashier pays out 2nd-4th, when the 1st guy got the W2-G he did not understand why it was for $300K. He nor is crew had any idea that was going to happen and wanted more money from players for taxes. It got crazy.

After @30 min failed understanding he said the unthinkable "I never agreed to chop".
He walked back to casheir (10 ft) and asked for a wire transfer, tipped 3 security guards $500 each to walk them to there rooms

Why would Wsop want to get involved with that!

Poker is a game of mistakes,
Chopping is a theory of more calculated mistakes

WSOP does not want to be judge & jury on this.

Bgfoot, thanks for responding. As far as I can tell, you and I are agreeing that the current situation is the worst. The WSOP doesn't facilitate chops, but they do allow them under the table (for deep stacks). So that's how we end up with nightmares like the one you described. Someone could go back on their word and then everyone else gets hosed. And FYI, chops are forbidden for bracelet events, so those guys were asking for trouble when they made that deal. Maybe if you know the person you feel comfortable, but please never make a deal involving 6 figures on only a handshake. And if it involves Chino Rheem you may want to hire an attorney and handcuff Chino to a 300 lb bodyguard until you get paid...

There's three options:
1) WSOP fully accepts chops and properly manages them when they come up. Floor gets the details and makes sure all remaining players agree before starting the chop process. They could even print out the new payout distribution and have everyone sign it. They could require that the deals are all chip-chops, ICM-chops or something close (maybe +/- 5% to allow for those cocky players that think they deserve an extra slice because of their "edge"?). That last part would stop the players from saying the Aussie gets the entire pool (to screw the IRS) and then chop it up on the side.

2) Completely ban chops like they supposedly do for bracelet events. If its discussed at the table then they could threaten to boot you from the tournament. Obviously they can't completely enforce it because you could discuss it on the side during a break, but at least the house is doing what they can to avoid chops gone bad. And by not stopping the tournament early that lowers the incentive to do an unofficial chop. If players still insist on chopping then they're on their own and it's their fault if they get screwed.

3) Stick to the status quo and stay firm on the payout schedule but allow players to end the tournament at any time. As noted above, this is the worst option.

The problem with Jamie Gold's deal (which was not a chop) was that it was verbal. If the guy had documented it properly then everything would have been golden. But that's all moot for this side discussion, because this is about chops not staking.

And back to the OP, I do love these tourneys. But I may become one of those jerks that says "no chop" because of these kinds of problems.

Actually, your story is an argument for WSOP facilitating chops. They would all have to sign agreements before getting paid. No backsies.

Not the Aussie mate, we get whacked with a 30% withholding tax.

This is clearly the ideal option and can't possibly be that difficult for the TD to manage.

Ah, my bad. I just remember hearing that Hachem got to keep every cent since he wasn't a pro at the time. Maybe I misunderstood.

There are some citizens from other countries that don't have to pay a dime, right? Brits maybe, due to a tax treaty? It doesn't matter for this thread, though. The point is that you can exploit the chop process if you know the tax rules up front.

My understanding is that there are ways to try and claim the withholding tax back, altho you'd expect legal fees of $5-10k. What may have happened is that he had withholding tax deducted and later was successful in getting some / all of it back.

I haven't had a cash big enough in the US to speak from personal experience. A mate of mine cashed for about $35 in the ME a couple of years ago, he certainly had withholding tax deducted and decided not to pursue trying to reclaim it.

In Australia, gaming winnings are not classified as income tax unless you are professional (and even then, I think that's hard to prove). From what I remember of the Hachem story, the thing that made big news is that the Australian Tax Office tried to claim a piece, but were unsuccessful.

From a Canadian perspective, Canadians are subject to a US 30% withholding tax on gambling winnings in the US and this tax is generally applied on single wins of $1200 or more (different games may provide for higher thresholds and YMMV). A Canadian resident does not generally report gambling winnings as income for Canadian tax purposes (there are exceptions, such as if it is your primary or sole source of income) so there is no tax relief for US withholding tax in Canada. However, Canadians can file a non-resident US tax return and attempt to recover some or all of the US withholding tax. To do so, as with any other US income, they must be able to claim legitimate and verifiable expenses to offset some or all of their gambling winnings. For example, if the winnings were $10000 and the US withheld $3000 in taxes, to recover all of the tax withheld the Canadian would have to be able to deduct expenses of $10000. If they have expenses of less than $10000 they can still recover some of the tax. I'm not an expert so I don't know what types of expenses can be claimed, other than to say gambling losses can certainly be claimed. So, if you are a Canadian and you manage to hit it big one day, make sure you have at least kept track of all your losses on all those days you weren't so lucky. You can claim them against your big win (and losses in any game count, whether it be slots, table games or poker). I do speak from experience in this matter - my wife hit a $7000+ slot jackpot one time and was able to successfully file a US 1040NR return and recover virtually all of the $2100 in taxes that were initially withheld.

WTF does this tax crap have to do with the Daily DeepStacks at the Rio during the WSOP?!?

Because the winner is on the hook to pay taxes for the entire principle amount

Thus, including taxes and offsetting the taxes with the chop is Germaine to the discussion

Well not just the winner. Anyone who walks away with $5,235 or more.

But as pointed out, the discussion of chops and who signs for the highest prize precipitated this discussion.

The one thing I'd reiterate is that people shouldn't rely on the tax "anecdotes" as advice. Everyone's situation is different and people should do their own research / get their own advice.

Why the discussion is still beneficial is that we can learn to ask the right questions from sharing experiences.

been a member here for 7+ years and you can't see the correlation?

Rio doesn't facilitate chops or help players that made unofficial chops.

Say you play a DS at the Rio. You chop 4 handed for 20k a piece.

Official prize pool was

40
20
15
5

Since you have to play it out, say you win. Rio will issue you a W2 with the amount of 40k. You have to pay taxes on 40k. In actuality you only made 20k.

See the issue?

sick payjump from 4th to 3rd compared to 3rd to 2nd

Pretty simple really. Same as a player who has 60% of himself signing for the full amount but paying his investors their portion. You would do the same thing with a chop where u took first but handed an amount to another human involved in the chop. Ud simply have them fill out same forms investors fill out to recieve their pieces. Hand them the amount. And issue them a 1099 at year end transferring the tax liability on the amount you gave then per the chop to them.

there's way too much liability being transferred between two random people though. it isnt like an investing situation because the investors know this is a possibility and others might not understand

Yeah, I really want to give some guy I've never seen before my name, address, and SSN.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha . . .
Of course I see the issue. Start another thread on proper chopping strategy at the WSOP then. You do realize you are fixated over a situation that happens to <~0.5% of the field?

And your payout structure isn't correct:


1st $58,283
2nd $35,992
3rd $23,686
4th $17,075
5th $12,498
6th $9,282
7th $6,990
8th $5,336
9th $4,126

for a field of 1,571. It is insanely steep.

The simplest solution is don't chop & run hotter than the sun. This isn't really the C.E's problem.

Uh this has nothing to do with" chopping strategy". Keep on trolling

Sent from my GT-I9300 using 2+2 Forums

The simplest solution is don't chop & run hotter than the sun. This isn't really the C.E's problem.[/QUOTE]
+1
Spoken like a true champion!

i dont, only played these when i busted bracelet events. Hope I don't have to have another summer where I play 20 of these things, FML.

Does anyone know whether late registration players start with a full stack in these daily's; or do they blind stacks down? I have not seen anything that spells it out on wsop.com

Thanks

you start with a full stack...you can post the blinds/antes or wait until your big blind.

Yea... that's not how to works. Friend was responsible for $20k but committed fraud and only paid the IRS for $12k.

NOTE: Beware of people giving out tax/financial advice who brag about Jerry Yang being one of their clients.

Played a few of the $235's last year and thought they were great.

I've never played a Venetian dse yet and was thinking of trying a $400 instead of the rio daily.Just wondering from anyone who has played both which tourney is better?