you still haven't explained why any of the poorly written characters are well written

and it's even worse if you are lgbt because that just means you're not being honest and objective but virtue signalling here

there's no chance in hell she has anything other than a lesbian haricut, any idiot knows this - fact you'd pretend it could be anything other than that shows your bias

not once did i say anything negative about them being gay or black or whatever - that was all on you and your own baggage you brought forward

and now that you're stumped to realize you can't defend them as characters because they are poorly written and they suck - you instead go to personal insults and "back out because it hurts your brain to deal with me"

you're just a coward

yes

confirmed - not a one off prop where the prop director just threw something together on the fly

they zoom in on him fishing with a conventional setup - he's also not holding it correctly fwiw

and just to drive home that he's not fly fishing, they show the lure, a lure with a comically oversized snap swivel and for unknown reasons they put split shot weights on the line which will disrupt the action of that crankbait


zooming on his hat and lures to show they are indeed pinned directly through the fabric and thus poking into his skull and also irretrievable without ripping the hat up with big holes given that the hooks have barbs


then when they show him cast it, he's not even standing anywhere close the the water, it's quite obvious the shore is at least 20 feet away because there are trees behind him in between him and water and you can easily tell by both his motion (he's using two hands to cast) and the fact he's not holding the release on the reel but rather the crank shows he's not even casting the lure away but rather just lazily flicking the rod forward - it's hard to capture because paramount won't let you go frame by frame but you can even see the lure just go straight down as well because the line is not released so it's like he's flicking a whip not casting a lure


now was this some esoteric and lost knowledge? no. it was fishing. one of the most common activities in the world. It's statistically impossible that there wasn't anyone on the crew or the cast or even the catering department or someone who does the lighting who could have easily pointed out these major mistakes

this was an easily solvable thing and yet they just said f that, we're going to wing it - even though this is apparently going to be a major character arc for the doctor and they even call it fly fishing

it's just a joke of a production

this show is absolutely embarrassing - the show runners should be imprisoned for war crimes

Movies and tv never get fishing right.

Writer "Hey let's have a charming moment where the doctor reads a picture book to his kid."

Showrunner "Good idea. We'll even highlight that it's a picture book with repeated close-ups on the illustrations."

Writer "Yeah kids love story time and following along. It'll be great to reinforce the doctor is a good man and set the scene for the upcoming episode with some foreshadowing."

Showrunner "I love it, but I kind of have this specific framing in mind already and kids can't read anyway amirite."

Beginning to think that the show is finally getting rolling and worth continuing

get to episode 9

obvious spoilers behind the spoiler

I can not watch STNG 'Lower Decks' without having a emotional break down... Same with 'Death Wish' from STV.

Thought I'd check in, been a while. I'm all up to date on all modern trek on TV/streaming, and finished Next Gen, and watched the first 2 seasons of Deep Space Nine so far.

It really isn't grabbing me. I feel like the only good characters are not Federation characters, except O'Brien. O'Brien, Odo, Quark and Elim Garak are interesting and worth watching for.

I just don't particularly care about Sisko, Dax and Kira.

I will continue though, because it's some people's favourite ST series, so it must have something.

Keep going. Seasons 3, 4 and 5 are the best IIRC, especially those focused on the Dominion War. Quark and Weyoun are excellent characters, and Garak is hands down the GOAT secondary character in the franchise.

And I'll take this opportunity to again plug the GOAT Trek novel "A Stitch in Time." Garak's back story, written by Andrew Robinson, the actor who played Garak.

So far, the writing in DS9 isn't the thing making Garak great, it's Andy Robinson's performance.

Yeah, it's definitely Andrew Robinson's performance that demanded Garak be involved in all the best storylines and episodes. He's the central character in arguably the best ST episode of all time. In fact, I think it's the secondary characters that really help elevate this show, largely because the actors are so good. Louise Fletcher (Nurse Ratchet from "One flew over the Cuckoos nest") is great as Kai Winn, as is J.G. Hertzler as Martok. Even very minor characters like Penny Johnson Jerald as Sisko's love interest and Kenneth Marshall as Eddington give Sisko plenty to chew on in their scenes.

However, I was never as high on DS9 as some people. I agree with KsoM that it does really pick up from series 3 inwards. IMO, seasons 1 and 2 are among the worse seasons of the whole franchise - probably only ST:TNG Season 1 is worse.

And yes, as good as the supporting cast are, it's the main cast that let it down. Dax and Kira are badly written and neither are great actors. Jake is a complete non-entity. I can't recall one good episode across 7 seasons that focused on these characters. Bashir was also really annoying in early seasons, but fortunately he did get some meatier storylines in later seasons and he often acted as the viewer's moral compass for the war. Quark and latterly Worf are good characters, but such was the weakness of the rest of the cast they were often overused and the Quark slapstick episodes soon got tiresome.

So in sum, DS9 is a chore when you have to wade through episodes focused on the weaker cast members, and there are far too many of these. However, the high points are some of the best in the franchise.

Best plotlines in ds9 were things happening outside of starfleet like quarks and garak

Quark is a severely underrated character imo

Rom was probably more underrated than Quark. I loved Quark in early seasons - he was probably the only character worth watching. However, they sacrificed his more complexed character for slapstick Grand Negus/Quark's mom episodes, which were meh at best.

I do like the Grand Negus popping up, so far.

Yeah, the Ferengi do provide some decent comedy relief - I just think they take it a little too far in later seasons

Alexander Siddig was great as Bashir, wish he'd get more work. He and the Chief is one of the better ST bromances. Rewatching Voyager now; the Parris/Kim bromance is rarely convincing. Most of the relationships on that show lack chemistry. The only ones that work involve Seven.

I think Dax got better as the show went on. Early on Terry Farrell's acting was limited to smiling flirtatiously. She never abandons that trait but does develop other aspects to her performance.

Avery Brooks never stops acting as if he's on stage, LOUDLY ENUNCIATING every syllable of his lines. I never warmed to him, although he does interact fairly well with the rest of the cast.

Shout out for gruff security officer Odo.

it was easy to forgive dax sucking as a character and actress because i had a huge crush on her

the most annoying ds9 character for me was kira and her whole "i'm a victim who is angry over past trauma" character arc they'd regularly spin through

all caught up on strange new worlds, it's definitely finding its feet with time

the doctor serves more purpose than just t&a, the pilot is no longer just a lesbian haircut but an actual person - albeit one who is still largely window dressing - uhura is no longer featured in super whiny and annoying character arcs

really beginning to enjoy it and i'm all caught up now

i still the show is run by idiots who repeatedly go about things the wrong way

they keep on introducing these game changing technologies that is over the top absurd because we know that future generations will never even mention these things before, it feels like just a series of "holdo manuevers" where they don't think through the obvious consequences of introducing that knowing full well that multiple generations will never use it even though it's literlaly the best thing ever and only reason they can survive

i really get the idea that this happens because they don't think they owe any continuation to the audience, once something serves its purpose, it is deus ex machina'd away from the doctor's daughter to yet another random event that magically solves everything

like the romulans have their entire invastion fleet present and are intent on destroying the enterprise which can't escape - kirk shows up to save the day bringing with him an entire faux armada of his own of mining drones under the pretense that since this is first contact, the romulans won't be able to tell the difference and these are advanced warships for all they know - despite that literally the first thing that ever happens in all first contacts in star trek is they scan the other ships systems and immediately know what their shields and weaponry capabilities are - the romulans do not do this just this once so the stupid plan can work - but then - here's the best part - it never mattered at all - the romulans just say yolo and decide to attack anyway even though it's now facing an entire armada - they immediately figure out it was a ruse, but the enterprise still escapes somehow because now they just decide it's more fun to shoot at unarmed drones than the only actual ship that was too slow to escape earlier but now apparently can do it

they are also creating a massive gorn problem, how is it that kirk who's fought the gorn in combat in this show is unfamiliar with them a few a years later - also, how is it that the gorn are the greatest enemy they've ever faced who relentlessly attack all settlements to eat the colonists are then never mentioned again - you just know they're going to wrap it up with some stupid "and the gorn agreed to never enter federation space again type thing

this show also really makes me appreciate the holodecks due to the flexibility they offer writers - whenever these guys want to have some kind of wacky plotline it's no longer a holodeck malfunction but now some "unexplained phenomena" and that pushes it closer to x files than star trek at times because it's just very transparent and clear they wanted to have a musical episode so they'll find the flimsiest excuse to launch it

but still, it's getting much better and definitely in the "enjoyable but with warts" category

tng>ds9>original>voyager>snw>picard





so i thought i'd dabble in enterprise

casting a long time character actor who i've seen in a million small roles in low budget things is really off putting and it makes me feel like i'm watching some cheap syndicated scifi like babylon 5 or stargate that lack the star trek gravitas (interestingly enough i've never seen a single episode of quantum leap so that's not even the part that throws me off)

but mostly, i just think he's a terrible actor

you can tell someone involved in casting loves bolt on titties

this is how we introduce our first female character

she is of course dressed like that because she's teaching a class at starfleet academy at that very moment - yes that's typical starfleet atire, not to mention real world educators also wear skimpy spaghetti tops to teach class - perhaps they just hand wave it away as casual friday

that one on it's own is not even worth mentioning, but it's relevant but with the other female the step it up to 11

in the very next scene we have another woman with basically 7 of 9's dimensions as well

but she's wearing typical space leotard uniform so it fits so whatever

so then another thing that grinds my gears is they are literally the first human ship ever to go out into the cosmos and interact with other civilizations - but they treat it like a weekend in des moines - no first contact protocol, no pomp and circumstance nor deference to being the first human ship to arrive to a new planet, they just pull in and go to the bar and have a drink and say "oh geeze these people act different than we do"

it's like it's a spaceship of mortys

and of course it wouldn't be a visit to a new planet without stopping by the strip club


and of course there's a pimp saying "you want to bang these girls, tell me which one and i'll make it happen and they are like oh geeze yeah that'd be nice but we kind of got a mission to do, but we'd really like to, maybe we'll come back after the mission"

literally a spaceship full of mortys

this is not star trek, there's nothing about it which feels like star trek

as different as picard is from the typical formula, it's still very in the star trek universe, just a cool trippy civilian life take on it all

this, no, not at all, i don't feel like anyone involved in it has ever even seen any episodes of any star treks in their life

and the vulcan, doesn't even say "sen-soar" she says sensors, that's like their vulcan thing, ears and they pronounce sensor funny - this one says it normally

and of course for reasons that serve absolutely nothing to the plot, literally nothing, they put her in a decontamination chamber without a bra


even literally panning down and zooming in on her chest


and doing intimate close up shots of her rubbing her body


for balance they have a six packed guy without a shirt doing the same

but this entire thing is just softcore porn, it's absurd

like wtf is this?


zooming in on the guy rubbing the small of her back


like seriously, wtf is this show?

it goes on for 3.5 minutes

three and a half minutes of airtime are given to that, something which serves absolutely no purpose at all for the plot




surely some people have watched enterprise, does it ever get good or even star trek adjacent? i can't imagine enduring more than the 2 part pilot i watched, which was terrible

Rich Evans on RLM made this same point about Seven of Nine. He basically said that when they introduced her, it was the first time he felt the producers were looking down and snigering at the audience. Like, yeah, you're all just young male nerds who can't get laid, here's something for you to wank over.

yeah 7 was a bit over the top in her proportions and the special skin tight uniform they gave her in order to emphasize them

however, i feel like it worked because

a - she was a good character who just happened to be unbelievably sexy
b - they kind of explained how she needed to wear a special outfit due to removal of borg implants
c - it was just her, which lent it more credibility of plausible deniability of "she just happened to look like that"

whereas on this show it's literally every female character - making it very clear to us that women on this show serve one purpose, to be ogled - granted, that was also very much a thing on the original series - but i thought they achieved that rather tastefully where if you meet an alien it's just gong to happen to be an attractive female with green skin wearing an outfit that gives the hint it could fall off at any moment - there was no, hey we're just going to zoom in on her nipples for 3 minutes


is enterprise worth sticking with? does it ever become star trek?

I never made it past perhaps the 5th episode. And I watched the Borg one out of curiosity.

I agree the concept behind seven was a good one, the execution behind it was mostly good and Jeri Ryan played the character well. They just didn't need to show her tits and ass off to the extent they did.

As far as problems with that show goes, I would rank her tits and ass being on screen too much at somewhere around problem 70 of 90.

so the show is not worth pursuing? not going to lie, i could barely watch the pilot and that's a terrible sign

I watched all of Enterprise but that says more about me than the show.


I would say that the show actually gets worse as it goes on. They drop the star trek formula of having (mostly) contained episodes and instead go for attempts at epic storylines. Imo this led to a very non star trek format in the star trek universe, and it did not work.

DS9 did this to a limited extent, but was way more successful with it. This was largely due to the self contained episodes having set up fantastic world building, but enterprise never gets there.

I recommend passing on it.