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Old 02-16-2008, 07:20 PM   #201
mlzjb
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Also, I though the car crash scene was weird and felt tacked on.
The car crash is an important event because it reinforces the unstoppability of fate. Chigurh, as a symbol for fate, is unstoppable, and even a seemingly random accident cannot deter him from his path. This is why he doesn't die and gets away without interference.
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Old 02-16-2008, 07:29 PM   #202
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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GTL what are your thoughts on this(taken from comments section on blog in regards to Jones final speech)


"One of the things I most love about the end of the film is the ambiguity of Tommy Lee Jones' final monologue. I'm not referring to the film suddenly ending and some not understanding the point the film is making. Instead, I'm referring to the final line of dialogue that Sheriff Ed Tom Bell tells his wife about his second dream.

"I continue to think long and hard about that final line. And I ask myself how I'm supposed to take that line coming from that man.

"Is the story of the second dream supposed to provide a ray of hope, a sense of eventual contentment of a full life lived to its fullest being finally rewarded? Or am I supposed to take the final line as an admission that this kind of hope has been completely, irrevocably taken away? That the good sheriff had that dream of a hopeful place there in the dark, a warm place made by his father waiting for him out there in all that dark and all that cold.

"And then I woke up".

"And that the events he's recently seen have removed any possibility of that hope coming to pass?
This entire movie is about the unstoppability of fate - you can't prevent what's coming to you. Jones's last line connects to this same concept. In his dream, he knew that his father would be waiting for him up ahead, that he'd make it through the storm. This symbolizes the thoughts he used to have about the world, when he believed that he would always be an effective deterrent against crime. "Then I woke up." In other words, he opened his eyes to reality and saw that he couldn't fight the changing world, that he couldn't rely on any certainty of making it through difficult times or stopping crime. The change - the fated change - was inevitable and unstoppable. His last line is an assertion of his own realization of this and of the fact that any hope of going against fate is just a dream.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:12 PM   #203
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Re: No Country For Old Men

There's an interesting review of the Coens' movies in the New Yorker this week written by David Denby - here's the bit about NCFOM that I thought was interesting:

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Tommy Lee Jones's sheriff remains on the sidelines (he never really gets into the action of the movie) and continues to make dejected remarks. Civilization, it seems, has come to an end, petering out in the yellow-brown fields of West Texas. But does the story support the sheriff's metaphysical dyspepsia? And have the Coens found, in Anton Chigurh, a correlative for their malign view of life? Who is Chigurh? What is he? He slaughters twelve people, and yet somehow manages to be seen by no one My note: This isn't quite true is it? Llewelyn sees him - and the drug dealers that he kills when they're at the shoot out scene see him. Maybe it's more accurate to say that no one who sees him lives... He kills a cop, yet the authorities never get their act together and track him down. The plot, when you parse it from scene to scene, doesn't hang together as a crime story.

Some people have said that you cannot read the movie literally. Chigurh is Death, they say, a supernatural figure, a vengeful ghost. But what do you do with teh realistic body of the movie if you read this one element supernaturally? Chigurh, despite Bardem's gravid tones and elocutionary precision, is not Death but a stalking psycho killer out of a grade-C horror movie. You keep wondering when he'll return, like Freddy Krueger. He's a trashy element in the book,too, but McCarthy gave him a shade more reality - he returns the money to the head of the drug syndicate and discusses an ongoing partnership. He murders people, but he wants to continue working in the trade; he's not quite the ineffable spirit of Evil.

The spooky-chic way the COens use Bardem has excited audiences with a niggling sense of the uncanny. But, in the end, the movie's despair is unearned - it's far too dependent on an arbitrarily manipulated plot and some very old-fashioned junk mechanics. "No Country" is the Coens' most accomplished achievement in craft, with many stunning sequences, but there are abscences in it that hollow out hte movie's attempt at greatness. IF you consider how litte the sheriff bestirs himself, his philosophical resignation, however beautifully spoken by Tommy Lee Jones, feels self-pitying , even fake. And the Coens, however faithful to the book, cannot be forgiven for disposing of Llewelyn so casually. After watching this foolhardy but physically gifted and decent guy escape so many traps, we have a great deal invested in him emotionally, and yet he's eliminated, off-camera, by some unknown Mexicans. He doesn't get the dignity of a death scene.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:44 PM   #204
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Originally Posted by mlzjb View Post
The car crash is an important event because it reinforces the unstoppability of fate. Chigurh, as a symbol for fate, is unstoppable, and even a seemingly random accident cannot deter him from his path. This is why he doesn't die and gets away without interference.
While I think the car crash scene was important I thought it was to prove something entirely different. It shows that Chigurh isn't unstoppable either. Even though he is running through this movie like he owns the world, this scene shows that eventually Chigurh will also become an old man who isn't unstoppable.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:56 PM   #205
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Re: No Country For Old Men

That was already shown by him getting shot by Lewellyn. It only shows that he can be hurt, and symbolically shows that he can be slowed, but he does keep going, he doesn't stop. The fact that he gets hit out of nowhere, and survives the devastating car crash, had me see him as him being unstoppable. You can might be able to stave off, or deflect, your death/fate, but you cannot stop it.
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:13 PM   #206
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Re: No Country For Old Men

The car crash is more interesting in the novel, imo. Chigurh is in control, he kills Carla Jean and then, literally in the next line, he gets hit. The scene with CJ is longer and doesn't cut away before the killing, and it's different from the movie in another way: instead of CJ getting him flustered by questioning his reliance on the coin, she comes to almost the same level of understanding that he has about fate and justice. As a reader, I didn't know whether this meant that Chigurh had been taken down a notch, or had learned something important, or what. And then wham, it goes from him pulling the trigger to him getting in the crash. I still haven't figured out what it means, but I 'liked' it more than the movie version of those two scenes.

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Old 02-20-2008, 05:24 PM   #207
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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First off, I really thought it was a big mistake to
Spoiler:
Yeah, but that was the whole point: to make you think you're watching one kind of movie and then pull the rug out from under you. It's a weird effect, but the only way to do it is to do it all the way. If they showed a little bit of Moss's death, the story would have failed at its goals and as a regular thriller.

If it helps, this effect is softened on subsequent viewings.

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Also, wanted to add that I've read a few interesting speculations that
Spoiler:


Any thoughts?
Nah. Chigurh killed Wells because Wells was a shark, a threat. Bell was a fish, not worth even killing - and he gives up because he realizes this.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:07 AM   #208
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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But the ending left me cold. First off, I really thought it was a big mistake to
Spoiler:


Also, I though the car crash scene was weird and felt tacked on.

All in all a very good film but TWBB is still my pick for best film of the year.
While I was watching it I felt as you do. The more I have thought about it however, the Coen Bros are geniuses. I now feel like they treated Moss with the utmost respect by not showing his demise. Think about it. They showed every other character that we didnt really care about get killed, but not Moss or his wife. Its so cliche to show that final conflict between good and evil. I appreciate the way they handled it now more than I did when I first watched it.

As for your last sentence about liking TWBB better, I feel just the opposite. While I believe DDL should win best actor for his brilliant portrayal, I think NCFOM was an overall better movie. I dont know, I just found that I enjoyed NCFOM much more.
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:15 AM   #209
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Originally Posted by HobbyHorse View Post
Who is Chigurh? What is he? He slaughters twelve people, and yet somehow manages to be seen by no one. My note: This isn't quite true is it? Llewelyn sees him - and the drug dealers that he kills when they're at the shoot out scene see him. Maybe it's more accurate to say that no one who sees him lives...
People who see Chigurh and live -

The guy in the gas station sees him. I suppose that doesn't count though, because he gets the coin toss. (EDIT: Just checked the screen play and the conversation goes scarycrazy after the gas guy says he's seen Chigurh)

The kids at the car crash see him. Though he does tell them they haven't seen him.

This idea gives more impact to the "Did you see me" line that Chigurh says to the accountant. I like the idea that if you "see" Chigurh you're going to die unless random fate says otherwise.

Last edited by britspin; 02-22-2008 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 06:28 PM   #210
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Re: No Country For Old Men

I am going to see NCFOM for the second time tonight. Best movie I saw all of last year. One of the things that I've wanted to get a better grasp on is the motel scene with Bell and Anton. The interpretation that I've liked best is that Anton is not there any more, but is instead a manifestation of Bell's fear.

Another interpreation that I've wanted to see if it works is that Anton is in the room, and when Bell pauses outside the room, he actually scares himself into not going into the room at all and instead just imagines going in and finding the window latch locked and knowing he is in the room with Anton. So instead of Anton's presence in the room being imagined, it is actually Bell's.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:32 AM   #211
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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While I think the car crash scene was important I thought it was to prove something entirely different. It shows that Chigurh isn't unstoppable either. Even though he is running through this movie like he owns the world, this scene shows that eventually Chigurh will also become an old man who isn't unstoppable.
After reflection this is what I thought also. There were a lot of similarities between the car crash scene and the scene where Moss negotiated with the kids at the Mexican border. Perhaps it was showing that Chigurh himself was destined to eventually suffer the same fate as Moss, at the hands of some other force of evil.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:45 AM   #212
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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After reflection this is what I thought also. There were a lot of similarities between the car crash scene and the scene where Moss negotiated with the kids at the Mexican border. Perhaps it was showing that Chigurh himself was destined to eventually suffer the same fate as Moss, at the hands of some other force of evil.
It's funny that you say this, because it makes me think of that scene in a different way. The kids are innocent and charitable until he gives them the money and they become greedy and argumentative - I thought of it as Chigurh being an agent of chaos sweeping through the world infecting them with human weakness, but maybe instead he's just passing it on to them, and 'retiring' himself.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:40 AM   #213
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Re: No Country For Old Men

watched the movie, had already seen the book. the movie stays very true to the book and i thought it was a very good adaptation. i was sort of bored though because i knew everything that would happen, so the book spoiled it for me i guess. I didn't think Chugarh's performance was as good as everyone made it out to be. I actually thought TLJ did a better job with his role.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:44 AM   #214
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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The car crash is more interesting in the novel, imo. Chigurh is in control, he kills Carla Jean and then, literally in the next line, he gets hit. The scene with CJ is longer and doesn't cut away before the killing, and it's different from the movie in another way: instead of CJ getting him flustered by questioning his reliance on the coin, she comes to almost the same level of understanding that he has about fate and justice. As a reader, I didn't know whether this meant that Chigurh had been taken down a notch, or had learned something important, or what. And then wham, it goes from him pulling the trigger to him getting in the crash. I still haven't figured out what it means, but I 'liked' it more than the movie version of those two scenes.
put me in the camp of not understanding the point behind the car crash. i think it has to do with showing 'youth corruption' and has to do with Tom's "Sir and Ma'am" speech. While the kid is nice enough to give his shirt he is also willing to follow evilness and say that he never saw Chigurh. In the book, after Tom questions that kid he still refuses to admit it, but his friend does.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:47 AM   #215
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Also, wanted to add that I've read a few interesting speculations that
Spoiler:


Any thoughts?
I don't see it.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:27 PM   #216
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Re: No Country For Old Men

I thought it was a very good movie.I have just seen an interview with Bardem and I had no idea he was Spanish and talks with a strong Spanish accent, which I thought makes his performance even better where the only accent he had was perhaps Texan




"Here, keep the quarter, don't put it in your pocket though. If you do, then it will get mixed in with your other coins and become just a coin, which it is"
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Old 03-17-2008, 02:36 PM   #217
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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put me in the camp of not understanding the point behind the car crash.
'You cant stop whats coming.' Fate/destiny/whatever you want to call it, can not be avoided. Not even by Chigurh.

I enjoy this movie more each time I see it. Absolutely brilliant.
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Old 03-22-2008, 05:31 AM   #218
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Re: No Country For Old Men

Sorry to bump this yet again, but I just saw it. I was on the edge of my seat up until the last 20 minutes, when the movie became a complete joke. Seriously, how can people enjoy this ending? Why is it that everyone (most people who like this movie, the people who gave it awards, reviewers, etc.) likes ambiguous endings? I go to a movie to see a story, NOT to see two-thirds of a story and have to guess how it ends.

This movie was awesome until the end. I didn't need a happy ending...I just needed a ****ing ending. But no, these Hollywood types try to be so deep by making me decide the ending for myself. What a joke. The Coen brothers can eat my balls.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:49 AM   #219
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Sorry to bump this yet again, but I just saw it. I was on the edge of my seat up until the last 20 minutes, when the movie became a complete joke. Seriously, how can people enjoy this ending? Why is it that everyone (most people who like this movie, the people who gave it awards, reviewers, etc.) likes ambiguous endings? I go to a movie to see a story, NOT to see two-thirds of a story and have to guess how it ends.

This movie was awesome until the end. I didn't need a happy ending...I just needed a ****ing ending. But no, these Hollywood types try to be so deep by making me decide the ending for myself. What a joke. The Coen brothers can eat my balls.
I haven't seen the movie. But, I read the book. I still vacillate between thinking the ending is either brilliantly perfect or McCarthy's wife bitching at him to hurry up and finish so he can take her to the mall.
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Old 03-22-2008, 10:48 AM   #220
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Originally Posted by Kos13 View Post
Sorry to bump this yet again, but I just saw it. I was on the edge of my seat up until the last 20 minutes, when the movie became a complete joke. Seriously, how can people enjoy this ending? Why is it that everyone (most people who like this movie, the people who gave it awards, reviewers, etc.) likes ambiguous endings? I go to a movie to see a story, NOT to see two-thirds of a story and have to guess how it ends.

This movie was awesome until the end. I didn't need a happy ending...I just needed a ****ing ending. But no, these Hollywood types try to be so deep by making me decide the ending for myself. What a joke. The Coen brothers can eat my balls.
Question for you sir: What was the theme of this movie? The 'ending', or lack thereof, was perfect. DUCY?
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:53 PM   #221
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Re: No Country For Old Men

Kos13,

Wells- dead
Stephen Root's character - dead
Moss - dead
Mrs. Moss - dead
Bell - quit
Chigurh - got the money, got away

Ignore the themes for a minute: logically, what more is there that could happen?
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:07 PM   #222
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Re: No Country For Old Men

Except you don't really know that Chigurh got the money. If you knew that, there wouldn't be thousands of people speculating about all sorts of different things (he doesn't have the money, Bell has it because he cut a deal in the hotel room, etc.). What you think of that speculation is meaningless; the point is that we don't know how the story ended because the Coen brothers are douchebags.

Rich: It may be perfect to you, but it's not to me. I don't need ambiguity...I want an ending to the movie. When the credits rolled after Bell talked about his dreams, I honestly thought my DVD had skipped. I didn't think that could possibly be the end of this movie. For a film that was so exciting for so long, that was the dullest, most wide-open ending I've ever seen.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:16 PM   #223
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Re: No Country For Old Men

for those who read the book first, did it surprise you when you found out the actual ages of Moss and his wife? Its not until he is dead that they state his age 35 and her's 19. I thought they were both older. Nothing in the book, as I could tell, told us otherwise. Do you think this was done on purpose? And if so, why?
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:30 PM   #224
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Re: No Country For Old Men

My review of the movie:

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Old 03-22-2008, 07:39 PM   #225
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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Except you don't really know that Chigurh got the money. If you knew that, there wouldn't be thousands of people speculating about all sorts of different things (he doesn't have the money, Bell has it because he cut a deal in the hotel room, etc.). What you think of that speculation is meaningless; the point is that we don't know how the story ended because the Coen brothers are douchebags.
Bell sees the vent, open, with a coin beside it and the camera lingers for a few seconds so we know it's important. We saw Chigurh open a vent with a coin earlier, and we know he's the only one who knows where Moss hid it the first time. Later, Chigurh gives the kid a hundo for a shirt, in a scene reminiscent of the one with Moss at the border earlier when he pays for a coat when Moss had the money. Chigurh got the money, and it's not that ambiguous.

The Coens made sure to have Chigurh shy away from blood several times during his murders, so that later they can just show him checking his shoes and we know he killed Carla Jean. This is the same kind of thing - they slowly show us that Chigurh knows where Moss hides things, how to get them, and what to do when he has them. Then everything happens in a way that fits perfectly with him getting the money.

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