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Old 11-17-2007, 01:45 AM   #51
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Re: No Country For Old Men

i think of all the films this year...in 20 years the ones that will be remembered and shown in film schools all over US will be No Country, Zodiac n maybe Michael Clayton
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:30 PM   #52
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Re: No Country For Old Men

Brolin was also terrific in American gangster, so a breakout year for him. With Love in the Time of Cholera coming out, it could also be so for Bardem.
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Old 11-17-2007, 01:20 PM   #53
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Re: No Country For Old Men

Good interview with the Coen Bros., Bardem, and Brolin on Charlie Rose last night. Rose shows usually repeat the next day at some point, so y'all might be able to still catch it.
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Old 11-17-2007, 03:26 PM   #54
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Re: Great film

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He hid behind the door that had swung open, and the door was never shown to be closed, so either he was there as long as Jones was there, he left while Jones had his back turned, or he was truly a ghost who could sneak out at will (that is, get out of the room w/out Jones noticing in the time it took Jones to get inside).

But I don't think he was really ghost-like, because Moss was able to detect him beforehand, as well as get the jump on him in the street. On a related subject, one of the things that interests me most and is never revealed is how/why they caught Chigurh at the beginning. That's the type of thing that always fascinates me about these stories.
I think you're being too literal - Anton hiding behind the door is simply the Sheriff's projection of what COULD BE beyond the door and waiting for him. It's the Sheriff's own fear - an illusion.
I was basing this at least in part on the fact that, in the book, there is the near miss in the motel (although it's a different situation). The book does have the Sheriff grappling with his fears (thinking to himself, "you know he's out there," "no, he isn't," etc.), but his fears were all well-founded. I'm not saying you're wrong, as your explanation makes a lot of sense and it's quite possible the Coens wanted to go in a different direction. I had just assumed that, since he was really there in the book, he was really there in the movie too.
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Old 11-17-2007, 07:12 PM   #55
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Re: Great film

Someone told me that when Jones sits down there is a shot of the floor and supposedly they thought they saw a quarter on the floor. as if Anton flipped it and that why he decided not to kill Jones
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:31 PM   #56
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Re: Great film

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Someone told me that when Jones sits down there is a shot of the floor and supposedly they thought they saw a quarter on the floor. as if Anton flipped it and that why he decided not to kill Jones
no, I the coin he sees is a dime - it's on the floor with a few screws and the grate from the heating duct. He used the dime previously to get into the duct in Brolin's first room.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:16 AM   #57
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Re: No Country For Old Men

The New Yorker, FWIW, didn't like Love in the Time of Cholera, and one major reason was that they felt Bardem was miscast and consequently weak in the movie.
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:42 AM   #58
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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Saw it this afternoon. It was Fargo redone in Texas without the novelty. Same story. I liked Fargo a lot. This was boring. Bardem was like watching a robot. Brolin was good, following up on another good performance in American Gangster. The last hour was just slow and dull. The only time there was any interest on screen, for me, was when Tommy Lee Jones was there. And I didn't understand the last scene, nor the next to last scene.

Maybe I just don't get it. And, I have to admit, I don't understand what the movie was about, what purpose there was for making it. Woody Harrelson was just plain awful, and I didn't understand why he was even in the movie.

What am I missing, guys?
wow andy, it is impressive how similar our thoughts are in movies. i thought pretty much exact same thing. i do think the movie was very well done though, after reading the IMDB message board and hearing some people explain some more what they thought the movie was about i also enjoyed the movie more looking back on it.

question - what is the deal with the coin, specifically the evil guy says a line "this coin has traveled for 22 years always to be with me here" a couple of times, what does that mean?
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:45 AM   #59
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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I agree that the similarities to Fargo are there: the vicious psychopath, vast empty landscapes, a cop who can't fathom the depth of the ongoing depravity. I think the main difference is this is kind of a continuation of the theme; the crimes in Fargo were an anomaly, the type of things that just don't happen in those kinds of places. In NCFOM, however, the senseless crimes are more a harbinger of what's to come, of an area that's going to be riddled with violence because of the drug menace. The events of Fargo happened because of one man's greed, and they ended when the few agents responsible were stopped; the events of this movie will continue to happen because of the greed of many, most of whom will never be stopped, or even known.

I think Bardem was supposed to be robotic. He was a man who was so committed to his twisted principles that he couldn't allow any deviation from them. He was like Hannibal Lecter in that Hannibal had a very strange sense of etiquette that he followed religiously, and expected others to do the same. Anton Chigurh had his code, and he followed it even when there was no gain in it for him (example/spoiler: the scene where he went out of his way to murder the wife, for instance ).

And I agree that Woody was the weak link of the film, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to call him awful. He had more of a purpose in the book, as he revealed a little about Chigurh's character and placed the events of the story in a bigger picture.

When you say you didn't understand the last two scenes, are you speaking of the ones at Tommy Lee Jones's house and that of his uncle or whomever that was?
i disagree about the biolence being an anamoly in fargo. there was less actual violence, but a lot of the movie was about emptimeness, it was the cold snow lonliness in nebraska, there was very little of the opposite - the warm bedroom scenes about the love between the cop wife and husband.

as far as bardon being emotionless. i like the idea of looking upon him as a representative of violence or suffering not as an actual person. meainingless for some people (like the guy driving in the car at the beginning who got air gunned in the head), emotionless, hm and some other stuff.
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:48 AM   #60
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Re: A Big Disappointment

"the book, at its core, is comparing the two characters (mainly what they are willing to risk to follow their "morals") chigurh represents someone without morals who therefore can follow his code without a problem. chigurh never has any decisions of his own,"

again, think it makes more sense to view this as bad things happening to people, instead of Chigurh happening to people. it makes sense as seeing bad stuff happen to people JUST BECAUSE IT HAPPENS, just because that is the way the world works. that was one of the main points of the movie i think, like the speech where the wheelchair guy talks about vanity and how these things can't be stopped, it is the natural course of events.

Re: Characters being stupid. I kind of agree with andy about them being dumb, but not to say they have low IQs or don't have "skill sets" which they obviously do. but they make bad choices and have bad priorities, like going for the money and the money gets everyone killed. same idea as in Fargo, think that was big in this movie too. Harrelson was in it for the money clearly, he dies, the main character money=death, mexicans/money=death. then the kids at the end of the movie give a sling to chirgough and get $100 for it (thoughts on that last scene and the money?)
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:17 AM   #61
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Re: A Big Disappointment

I have skipped the spoilers as best I could, but this is the most interesting film thread I have read on 2/2 in ages. It speaks very well of the film.
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Old 11-18-2007, 01:25 PM   #62
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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... (thoughts on that last scene and the money?)
I thought it was an example to show that Anton and Moss aren't that different at all - when it comes to survival, they'll resort to the same methods/ideas (Moss offers the college kids money for the jacket at the border)
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:22 AM   #63
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Re: No Country For Old Men

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i think of all the films this year...in 20 years the ones that will be remembered and shown in film schools all over US will be No Country, Zodiac n maybe Michael Clayton
Not so sure about Zodiac. Ive seen it 3 times through no will of my own, except for the 1st time, and I was suprised, intially, at how much I disliked it. The first little bit is good and then it just drags and drags, and really the end jumps around so much with the time cuts that it just comes up feeling empty.

The 2nd and 3rd time I watched it was also with huge David Fincher fans, and same thing, liked the first half, 2nd half just died out.

Anyway, opinions.
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:51 AM   #64
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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"the book, at its core, is comparing the two characters (mainly what they are willing to risk to follow their "morals") chigurh represents someone without morals who therefore can follow his code without a problem. chigurh never has any decisions of his own,"

again, think it makes more sense to view this as bad things happening to people, instead of Chigurh happening to people. it makes sense as seeing bad stuff happen to people JUST BECAUSE IT HAPPENS, just because that is the way the world works. that was one of the main points of the movie i think, like the speech where the wheelchair guy talks about vanity and how these things can't be stopped, it is the natural course of events.

Re: Characters being stupid. I kind of agree with andy about them being dumb, but not to say they have low IQs or don't have "skill sets" which they obviously do. but they make bad choices and have bad priorities, like going for the money and the money gets everyone killed. same idea as in Fargo, think that was big in this movie too. Harrelson was in it for the money clearly, he dies, the main character money=death, mexicans/money=death. then the kids at the end of the movie give a sling to chirgough and get $100 for it (thoughts on that last scene and the money?)
i spoke to your point about money/death earlier, but i put it in white as it's a spoiler. I'll put it in white again, because to me, it is one of the key parts of the book and the movie. What gets Moss killed is the fact that he cannot leave the Mecican to die out in the desert. Remember, he has the money, and no one knows who he is but he goes back to the scene with water for the wounded Mexican. This is Moss' mistake. He cannot leave a man to die. It is very subtle, but will change your view of his character and what the book and movie are trying to do thematically

Also, when chigurh says, this coin traveled 22 years to get here it serves several purposes. It offers a description of setting. He states the year on the coin, and how many years it has been traveling, so you know the time period that the story is taking place. Late seventies.

Also, he is alluding to fate or destiny. I think he means, you have been living your whole life up to this point making choices and they have led you here to meet me. The coin has been "living" its life and has been led here as well. Chigurh makes similar statements to Woody Harrelson's character. Something along the lines of, if your code has led you here, then there is a flaw with your code, not with me.

Fate and Destiny are very important to Chigurh because he doesn't make choices, he just follows his rules and lets fate carry out it's plan. In this respect, I agree with your idea that Chigurh is a symbol for mindless violence and brutality that have no preference for affecting good or bad people. Chigurh is not a moral person, he doesn't care whether his victims "deserve" what they get. He has no emotion, just like the violent world around us.

At the same time, Chigurh is very real to the characters in the story. He is not a "ghost" even though he might symbolize mindless violence. He really is a sociopathic killer. He is also a thematic symbol.

A lot of my interpretations about themes in the movie come from my reading of McCarthy's other books which have many similar themes. It's not all there in the movie.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:08 AM   #65
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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... (thoughts on that last scene and the money?)
I thought it was an example to show that Anton and Moss aren't that different at all - when it comes to survival, they'll resort to the same methods/ideas (Moss offers the college kids money for the jacket at the border)
this is an interesting point, and i hadn't really thought about it. partly because the book and the movie end somewhat differently, and partly because I never thought to compare Moss and Chigurh like that. (I was busy comparing Moss and the Sheriff.)

Semi spoiler in white
When I think about it more, Moss and Chigurh always seem to come out in a draw when they meet face to face. Moss is caught then slips away several times, and even when they shoot it out it is somewhat of a draw. Interesting.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:50 AM   #66
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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this is an interesting point, and i hadn't really thought about it. partly because the book and the movie end somewhat differently, and partly because I never thought to compare Moss and Chigurh like that. (I was busy comparing Moss and the Sheriff.)

To me, the Sheriff is more of an example of "what could have been". Had the Sheriff been younger (10, 20 years?), I really think that he would have been an equal to both Moss and Chigurh, in terms of resourcefulness and tenacity.

(spoiler) Instead, he seems to be just a step behind - just missing Anton at the trailer park, not convincing Moss's wife enough to protect her from Chigurh


That's a great point in your spoiler - (spoiler again)
Anton seems to be able to kill anyone he desires to, but can't finish Moss; Moss seems to come up with very rational plans of escape and backup measures, but he can't ever shake Chigurh.
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:55 PM   #67
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Re: A Big Disappointment

two rooms were taped off with crime scene tape, i think chigurh was in one room and the sherrif walked into the other room, again chance coming into play.
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:16 PM   #68
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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this is an interesting point, and i hadn't really thought about it. partly because the book and the movie end somewhat differently, and partly because I never thought to compare Moss and Chigurh like that. (I was busy comparing Moss and the Sheriff.)

To me, the Sheriff is more of an example of "what could have been". Had the Sheriff been younger (10, 20 years?), I really think that he would have been an equal to both Moss and Chigurh, in terms of resourcefulness and tenacity.

(spoiler) Instead, he seems to be just a step behind - just missing Anton at the trailer park, not convincing Moss's wife enough to protect her from Chigurh


That's a great point in your spoiler - (spoiler again)
Anton seems to be able to kill anyone he desires to, but can't finish Moss; Moss seems to come up with very rational plans of escape and backup measures, but he can't ever shake Chigurh.
Have you read the book? If not, you need to read it.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:45 PM   #69
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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two rooms were taped off with crime scene tape, i think chigurh was in one room and the sherrif walked into the other room, again chance coming into play.
This is what I thought, but I haven't really seen anyone who agrees with this idea.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:54 PM   #70
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Re: Great film

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And no, Anton didn't not kill Moss. The Mexicans who found out where Moss was going killed him in a big shootout and stole the money. In the book, though, Chigurh ends up with the money, so it's safe to assume he caught up with the Mexicans.
I was under the impression Chigurh did get the money when he went back to the scene (they made it a point to mention the mexicans were in a rush and didn't have much time. Chigurgh's dime was on the floor near the vent; indicating he had opened the vent, where the money may or may not have been).
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Old 11-22-2007, 02:24 AM   #71
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Re: Great film

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And no, Anton didn't not kill Moss. The Mexicans who found out where Moss was going killed him in a big shootout and stole the money. In the book, though, Chigurh ends up with the money, so it's safe to assume he caught up with the Mexicans.
I was under the impression Chigurh did get the money when he went back to the scene (they made it a point to mention the mexicans were in a rush and didn't have much time. Chigurgh's dime was on the floor near the vent; indicating he had opened the vent, where the money may or may not have been).
this is what i thought happened in both the book and the movie.
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Old 11-22-2007, 04:14 AM   #72
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Re: Great film

The movie was great. And this thread made me like the movie even more. After reading this thread I really want to read the book, I started reading "Blood Meridian" so maybe after that.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:44 PM   #73
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Re: Great film

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And no, Anton didn't not kill Moss. The Mexicans who found out where Moss was going killed him in a big shootout and stole the money. In the book, though, Chigurh ends up with the money, so it's safe to assume he caught up with the Mexicans.
I was under the impression Chigurh did get the money when he went back to the scene (they made it a point to mention the mexicans were in a rush and didn't have much time. Chigurgh's dime was on the floor near the vent; indicating he had opened the vent, where the money may or may not have been).
this is what i thought happened in both the book and the movie.
i was about to comment on this, and then you guys mentioned it. i'm just going to white out the rest of my post below.

at first, i wasn't sure what went on in the motel room at the crime scene. it was a little unclear where in the room anton was when jones saw the movement through the door.

i, too, thought maybe he was just behind the door the whole time. then, when jones enters the bathroom, they clearly focus on the window latch. at this point, i figured anton had escaped sometime after they showed him standing in the dark room and before jones cocked his gun and opened the door.

after they show the window latch, jones goes back to the living room, looks down, and sees the dime and open vent. this is where moss hid the money, and i believe they showed it to say that anton got the money and escaped out the bathroom window.

the stuff i list below i have no idea how people got:
- anton killed moss
- jones imagined seeing anton in the room
- anton wasn't in the room jones was looking into
- anton is like a ghost

the stuff i do feel similarly about:
- the car accident near the end, other than the similarities it - kind of - shows between moss and anton
- the tie-in between the opening monologue and the closing dream (i felt like i was supposed to know who the person was in the second dream, but i didn't)


and finally, did the office dude hire anton to find this money and subsequently hire woody when anton hadn't found it soon enough? that's what i got from the conversation that went something like this:

dude: i figured having more tools on the job i'd get the money faster.
anton: my philosophy is having the best tool for the job.
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:28 PM   #74
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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Good stuff, thanks.

You're right, the characters are certainly not sloppy and dimwitted, like the Fargo characters. They showed resourcefulness. Moss was thoughtful, but in the end not thoughtful enough. None of the characters were smart enough to succeed.

The only thing with which I definitely disagree is your last sentence. Surely his desire for the money was what did Moss and his wife in. Please explain why you think otherwise.

Thanks again.
A lot of people will miss this and I missed it the first time I read the book. This is a mild spoiler, so don't read this if you are planning on seeing the movie guys. When Moss takes the money and goes back to his wife no one knows about it. Neither the drug sellers, buyers, nor Chigurh have any idea that Moss took the money. The transponder only works at close range, and he might have been found later, but that is a big maybe. Moss goes back to the scene and has to abandon his truck to escape. His truck gives away his identity and seals his fate. Moss goes back the second time to bring water to the wounded Mexican. He tells his wife, "I'm fixin to do something dumber than hell, but I'm going to do it anyway." He can't leave the man to die. He just can't do it. This is what gets him into the mess. This is also how he is different than the sheriff. The book ends with the sheriff telling a story of leaving his men behind to die in the heat of battle. There is more to it than this, of course. But in my mind, the money isn't what gets Moss killed, it's the moral code that he follows that won't allow him to leave a man to die.

I know you were expecting me to wax philosophical on why it's not about the money. But there is actually tangible evidence that it wasn't the money that got him into the mess. Of course it's just my opinion. I like talking about movies and books I enjoy, so keep asking away.

To your point about none of the characters being smart enough to survive. This is a hallmark of all tragedies. I'm an intelligent person myself and I enjoy tragedies because they are full of brilliant people, good and bad, who will never reach a happy ending. Just makes for great art.
GTL,

(in white)
If Moss doesn't go back to give water to the dying Mexican, he never gets seen. However, there is still the transponder in the satchel. It is the fact that he goes back and gets seen that allows him to last as long as he does. Otherwise, Chigurh just shows up unexpected and blasts him and his wife to hell.
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:22 AM   #75
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Re: A Big Disappointment

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Good stuff, thanks.

You're right, the characters are certainly not sloppy and dimwitted, like the Fargo characters. They showed resourcefulness. Moss was thoughtful, but in the end not thoughtful enough. None of the characters were smart enough to succeed.

The only thing with which I definitely disagree is your last sentence. Surely his desire for the money was what did Moss and his wife in. Please explain why you think otherwise.

Thanks again.
A lot of people will miss this and I missed it the first time I read the book. This is a mild spoiler, so don't read this if you are planning on seeing the movie guys. When Moss takes the money and goes back to his wife no one knows about it. Neither the drug sellers, buyers, nor Chigurh have any idea that Moss took the money. The transponder only works at close range, and he might have been found later, but that is a big maybe. Moss goes back to the scene and has to abandon his truck to escape. His truck gives away his identity and seals his fate. Moss goes back the second time to bring water to the wounded Mexican. He tells his wife, "I'm fixin to do something dumber than hell, but I'm going to do it anyway." He can't leave the man to die. He just can't do it. This is what gets him into the mess. This is also how he is different than the sheriff. The book ends with the sheriff telling a story of leaving his men behind to die in the heat of battle. There is more to it than this, of course. But in my mind, the money isn't what gets Moss killed, it's the moral code that he follows that won't allow him to leave a man to die.

I know you were expecting me to wax philosophical on why it's not about the money. But there is actually tangible evidence that it wasn't the money that got him into the mess. Of course it's just my opinion. I like talking about movies and books I enjoy, so keep asking away.

To your point about none of the characters being smart enough to survive. This is a hallmark of all tragedies. I'm an intelligent person myself and I enjoy tragedies because they are full of brilliant people, good and bad, who will never reach a happy ending. Just makes for great art.
GTL,

(in white)
If Moss doesn't go back to give water to the dying Mexican, he never gets seen. However, there is still the transponder in the satchel. It is the fact that he goes back and gets seen that allows him to last as long as he does. Otherwise, Chigurh just shows up unexpected and blasts him and his wife to hell.
Possible spoikers **** (Don't read this thread unless you've seen the movie, obvi)

The transponder wouldn't work unless Anton gets close enough for it to pick up the signal. He doesn't get close enough for that unless he goes to the motel Moss is staying at. He doesn't find the motel unless he goes to Moss' place of residence and gets the phone records. He doesn't know where/who Moss is unless Moss drives back to give the mexican la agua.

Also:

I loved the movie, here's a semi-half-interesting movie with the Cohen brothers, Bardem and whoever played Moss

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...h&plindex=0

(Charlie Rose makes a lot of mistakes in this)
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