Listened to the whole thing in the last few days. I find it hard to believe that anybody could honestly say that Adnan is innocent. I say that as a criminal defense attorney...

I thought it was perfect. Of course we were not going to get any definitive answers. The very impossibility of providing those answers was the point of the show. The best we can do is say there was not enough evidence to convict which is obvious and the cornerstone of the legal system. As Adnan said only one or two people know who did it but we can say the legal system failed here.

People looking for who did it seem to be confusing journalism with fiction, something grade schoolers know how to do.

This.

Whether innocent or involved I still maintain there wasn't enough evidence to obtain a life conviction for Adnan. Clearly Jay is involved and the two of them were up to something that day and "not shopping for a present for Stephanie"

My new wild theory is that Adnan got fronted some drugs for New Years Eve, Jay and Jenn assisted him in the hook-up but it was Adnan's deal. He takes it to the party where he meets Nisha of Silver Springs and got rolled and couldn't cover his debt. He had two weeks to make good on the deal, and when he didn't, the Mob kidnapped Hae thinking she was Adnan's girlfriend and killed her in the process.

Jay is scared ****less before he goes to the cops, Stephanie is next if he doesn't figure something out. He assists in framing Adnan for Hae's murder.

Pusitari gets them to the park and the cell phone pings the location. Hae may already be buried there or not, it doesn't matter Adnan gets tied to the location where the body is ultimately found.

The $10K cash during the trial was used to settle the debt, maybe with the pretense they could fix the crooked cop and get him sprung as well.

The big unsubstantiated rumour is that Adnan dealing mad volume of coke

The mob influences court to be lenient with Jay, they got there money back, and have an example rotting in a cell to show what happens to you if you don't honor your deal.

Jay and Adnan can't say who really did it or they're dead too.

The mob is providing protection for Adnan while he is in jail, but he's screwed if he starts talking.

Thats like the Scorsese or Ellroy version

Final episode was really good I thought and actually left me wanting a whole lot more. I thought they were stretching it a bit in the last few episodes but now they came up with a whole lot of other things that I wanted to hear more about, like finally talking to Don, the serial killer angle (however unlikely). It's really too bad all that came up so late.

Having listened to the whole thing including the final, excellent episode tonight, I'm left with these two things. First, what could possibly motivate Jay to accuse Adnon of murder, if in fact Adnon didn't do it? I mean, that's one hell of a thing. And second, if you yourself were accused of a murder that you did not commit, how in the hell could you not get up and testify that you didn't do it? I mean, there is nothing worse than murder so what would you be hiding? And if you actually didn't do it, how could you possibly make the case against you worse?

Looking at the whole thing, I think Adnon did probably do it. Was there enough to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt? Well, it's marginal, but I think there was.

You mean besides the fact that Jay was clearly an accessory, yet he never served a second of jail time? That sounds pretty damn motivating to me.

On the surface, I agree with you ("How can I not argue for myself?"), but it sounds like this is fairly common. They're not afraid of Adnan not telling his side of the story because his attorney can do it for him; they're worried about the prosecution making him look stupid. I can at least understand the idea of not wanting a dumbass 17-year-old to get easily shaken and outsmarted by an attorney who does this for a living.

Jay is liar. The timeline is bunk. But Adnon did it.

His actions that point to his guilt for me are the way he only vehemently attacks parts of the story, like the time it takes to get to bestbuy, but when asked why he wasn't more upset about being falsely accused by Jay he just says " what's the point? People will believe me or they won't ". Wtf. That could be said about every word he utters. What's point in saying anything then? Sarah' explanation of "it's common jailhouse knowledge you don't say anything that may be interpreted as cohersing..." is thin at best and inconsistent with other things he says.

The real reason he doesn't try to directly impeach Jay, just aspects of the story imo, is he doesn't ever want Jay to tell the truth. He only wants to overturn the verdict based on the parts of jay's story that are untrue. This is also why he strangely isn't so excited about the Asia/library alibi news compared to his reaction at Sarah not disproving the drive to bestbuy was not possible within the timeline. He was at the library and it achieves the same thing but that's not his point. His point was that he couldn't have been at bestbuy. He doesn't want the truth out, just wants to focus on what is not true.

Also he lists all of the things that are important to him at one point, clearing his name, blah blah blah. One thing he had never seemed to care about is the real killer of his friend. If he is innocent then why isn't he at all concerned that the murderer is free? Not mad at Jay for framing him? How about for either killing or covering for the killer of the girl he loved? Gtfo.

I think he did it. Probably at the library, not bestbuy. Got Jay involved after. Jay and him drove around for hours like parts of his initial time line indicated (the park). They buried the body. Jay lied to the police every time they talked to him until they liked his story enough to stop asking, the prosecution made him stick to it to get his deal.

Adnon thought he would not be convicted because the story was incorrect. Testifying could only hurt him and it should have been an easy acquittal. His attorney failed. The jury was wrong. He got convicted. The cops, and anyone else who knows the story was wrong are more interested in the guy who killed the girl staying locked up than true "justice".

Believing in the system is naive. It's a great idea but depends on too many people being competent.

The show was good but I could have done with a less gossipy tone.

10/10

Agree with everything.

Jay knew where the car was and some other details. This convinced the cops that Adnan did it and they played along and helped him improve the "come and get me" story. Jay's story for the burial matched the cell phone records. The Best Buy call and all that was made up by Jay to save himself from suspicion that he was the killer but the cops/prosecution played along and helped improve the story to ensure an arrest/conviction of Adnan.

That's my "most likely" theory. His lawyer should have destroyed the prosecution's case, but...

Are we sure that Koenig told us everything including any evidence that adnan did it? Has the reddit community etc dug into this as much as she did? My point is she seemed biased from the start and I wouldn't be surprised if she left out some details intentionally to fit her aim

What was the point? There was no resolution.

You kinda answered your own question. The point was that people still can go to prison when things are not resolved. For me the point was that it was race to the bottom between the prosecution and defense. Who was the worst determined the outcome.

I don't think she left anything out, but whenever she would bring up something that looked bad for Adnan she would try to make it seem less important. She has been pretty clearly biased throughout.

The other thing she kept doing was presenting the audience with the false dichotomy of Adnan either being a psychopathic killer or an innocent nice guy.

This is gold:

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prosp...ned-to-serial/

slight tweaks to my theory, Jay intercedes and gets Adnan the drug deal. Adnan blows it somehow and doesn't have the cash to make good. The Mafia issues an ultimatum that is not met. Adnan gives his Jay a POS Geo (or whatever) to deliver as a partial payment, it's not deemed sufficient, they lean on Jay to enforce the penalty because he brought the clown to them. Jay has to do it or he and/or Stephanie are on the block as well. Jay kills Hae. In his mind Hae is dead because Adnan ****ed up, so Adnan is responsible for her death.

Jay's deal with the prosecution, he gets to walk if they get a conviction and info on the supply chain.

I'm a huge fan of This American Life. For those of you who are looking for resolution, that's just not the style of story-telling TAL does. They like working with the unusual and enjoy playing with ambiguity. Quite often, they play with your ideas of good or bad. It's just a truly magical show, and the magic of it is that it always makes you think. It sort of pretends takes sides at times, but not in the petty way we are used to; it takes sides because it want to challenge the listener.

While I think Serial follows the style well, I didn't feel that sense of awe when I listened to it. It was well-done, but it really didn't need to be a nine-hour show, or whatever it clocks in at.

I get the sense that everyone in the story is holding something back. Everyone knows something, but everyone, from the people in the Muslim community who hid their voices, to Adnan, to Sarah, held back information. In my opinion, this isn't supposed to be a mystery, though that is what it is on the surface. It is a meditation on the human condition.

With that said, Dana made a solid point about luck. I mean, it is a lot of coincidence for someone who is totally innocent.

I've only heard one episode of This American Life, and it was an incredibly biased/awful episode about Goldman Sachs. I despise much of what Goldman Sachs does, and this episode was so bad I actually sided with them. Ira Glass may be the smuggest person alive.

I agree with almost all of what you say, but not so much with this part. It was never an easy acquittal. A very hard one, at best. It's the fundamentals that are essentially overwhelming. Jay testifies that his friend killed Hae. That fact alone is extremely powerful. Some timeline facts are inconsistent, for sure, but that doesn't outweigh the crushing testimony from Jay that "he did it, he told me he did it, and I helped him bury the body." Although Adnan's not testifying cannot be considered by the jury, what it does mean is they don't have the accused saying "I didn't do it." It's not important that he didn't say it, it's important that the jury doesn't have that.

Jay's motive is, again, fundamental, and makes perfect sense. He got dragged into the situation, and ended up helping bury the body. He realizes he to might get dragged into a murder charge, and quickly understands he needs to rat out Adnan to make sure he doesn't go down hard.

Inconsistent timelines? Small facts clearly lied about? Witnesses who may have seen Adnan at a particular spot at a particular time? They all are of minimal importance given the elephant-sized testimony saying "that guy right there did it, and I helped him bury the body." No WAY is that an easy acquittal. And I think his lawyer did a fairly decent job. She just had so so little to work with. And for God's sake, if the kid did it, you sure as **** don't put him on the stand, even the smart, articulate, unflappable Adnan. And if he didn't do it, oh you get his butt up there, to save his life.

I see your point and you are right at very least in this case re the weight of jay's testimony. I am not sure that is the rule though. Many times charges are not even going to be brought with only accomplice testimony that isn't backed up with goodphysical evidence. This wasn't that.

The easy acquittal comes in the form of Asia's testimony that was offered but not used that would have challenged jay's testimony. Hammering the inconsistencies in the several stories Jay told the police and putting heat on him as to why it changed rather than badgering him and frankly making him a sympathetic victim for it from what the tapes sounded like at times. I mean some of the jury didn't realize Jay was avoiding jail time by testifying until the podcast interview. That is admissible isn't it? I have yet to hear anyone say they think Jay is telling the real truth but the jury did, so she did not do a good job.

And it sounds like his attorney was winning the first trial that she herself essentially caused a mistrial in as well.

As for him not testifying, let's say Adnan is innocent. He takes the stand and has to answer hostile questions about lying to his family, buying drugs, cutting school, sex, and who knows what else he was into? Even now he shuts down when on the spot and even an innocent man will be put on the spot by a prosecutor . And man, he had no memory of the day or any incling as to why Jay would frame him? Too much risk just to say "no I didn't" imo.

What a shock. If only TAL were as good and unbiased as O'Reilly Factor hey. The world needs more solid journalism like Fox.

The Asia alibi doesn't cover a meaningful time-frame from Jay's testimony. It was the prosecutor's closing argument that gave a time-frame that Asia could potentially have debunked.

That is why I think his lawyer failed. To have multiple witnesses testify the go get me call happened well after 3:00 and then for the prosecutor to present it as happening at 2:36 should have absolutely paved the way for the defense to just tear apart the state's case in their closing.

In my non-lawyer mind, the prosecution tried to pull a fast one and they did so knowing that it was the safest call to pick out as the "come and get me" call despite multiple witnesses testifying to that call happening later.

That opens so many doors for the defense attorney to just tear apart their narrative and point out that it was the best story the prosecution could go with given the facts and it still doesn't fit.

Again IMO, Jay's story is bull**** except for the burial and the location of Hae's car. People believe he lied about the location of the trunk pop because he was more involved in the murder and wanted to distance the cops from the scene. I think it's more likely he invented that part entirely and has no idea where the murder happened, there was no come and get me call etc...

At some point he meets up with Adnan and the rest of the night happens in a way that aligns somewhat closely with his testimony.

Jay was worried the cops would pin the murder on him so he invents the details of what happened prior to some point in the afternoon/evening. The cops know his story is bull, but they are willing to go along with it because they recognize the situation and need a stronger witness against Adnan anyway so the story gets refined.

http://time.com/3639655/serial-innoc...irdre-enright/

interview with Dierdre Enright, head of the UVA Law School Innocents Project

Great point re the time in the trial that Asia became important.

If Adnan was, for example, going to meet Jay to buy weed at the best buy and showed up with Hae in the trunk, it is not hard to imagine how easily Jay got pulled into the situation and would not be compelled to tell the truth to the police in the beginning if ever.

Advice for people not sure about the time commitment: this is a good podcast to listen to at 1.5x speed, maybe slow it down for some of the phone conversations.

The most interesting part for me is the host's relationship with Adnan, like when he snaps at her and she admits how much it hurts her. She doesn't hide how emotionally connected she feels with him, guy just had that effect on people I suppose.