This is my main problem with both this point ("Him not calling is the smoking gun!") and the case as a whole. It's a natural human reaction to want to confirm the suspicion rather than disprove it. Had Adnan been acquitted, I feel like a lot of people's perspectives would be completely different. Is it possible he didn't call her cell because they just weren't that close? What's Adnan's motivation for calling? He thinks she's going to respond to him - the guy she broke up with - when she's not picking up for her close girl friends?

Also, just as a general point, the "Santiago's bags aren't packed, and Adnan didn't call her" point is a dumb one IMO. If Adnan is an intelligent, sociopathic murderer who planned out this entire thing, wouldn't his story have fewer holes (him not calling her, making sure his track team/coach remembered him being there, having a more precise story pre-established, not bragging to randoms about the murder, etc.)? I agree with the idea that a brilliant murderer might overlook a tiny detail that ruins their whole story (ex. "Aaron" slipping up at the end of Primal Fear), but when their story has 10 giant holes, them being some mastermind seems less plausible.

I don't know if Adnan did it. I don't see motive at all, though, which is like 90% of the battle. Mr. S being involved makes it even thinner, too. I think a likely explanation is that Adnan and/or Jay know what happened, but admitting to the truth would be more damning than just proclaiming their individual innocence. In other words, if the truth would actually have landed Adnan in jail anyway, he might as well just deny all involvement and at least appear innocent to his family.

Jay knows who murdered Hae, because he knew where the car was. He is the focal point. So if you think it is anyone else, it has to involve Jay as well. Jay has no motive to kill Hae. She was not raped. She was not robbed. It was personal. Adnan had the means, motive, and opportunity. It is obviously Adnan.

I've yet to see any "reasonable doubt" that makes any sense. It is usually just conjecture. If it's Jay or Jay and X, what in the hell was their motivation?

He doesn't have (legitimate) motive, though. It sounds like Adnan was banging tons of chicks, and I believe all of the people interviewed said he wasn't ever obsessing over Hae or their breakup. And if he has motive to kill anyone, it's Dave, not Hae. The idea of "having motive" from Adnan's POV just seems incredibly thin to me.

You should trust the telephone records over people interviewed a decade later. He seems pretty obsessed with the number of times he is calling her.

If Adnan didn't have a motive, who did? I agree there's not much there but its at least something that potentially could have driven someone to murder a 17 year old girl. What's Jay's motive for doing it and framing Adnan?

We don't know 17 year old Adnan nearly as much as we think we do. It can't be ruled out that despite everything he just freaked out upon finding out she was sleeping with another guy.

Its not that reasonable a motive, but its more reasonable than any other alternative.

IANAL but I really wish I'd had the opportunity to prepare and deliver the closing statement in Adnan's trial for the defense.

Sociopathic doesn't require brilliance. He could be a great liar with strong charisma yet still not planned the crime well at all. Or acted intelligently after. Actually that's exactly what I think about Adnan.

What do you consider a legitimate motive? Why wouldn't jealousy be one?

Adnan remembers the day because it's Stephanie's birthday. If you remember the day, wouldn't it be because it was the day your ex-girlfriend went missing and the cops were calling you?

Adnan gives Stephanie a stuffed Reindeer for her birthday then takes Jay to the mall so he can buy her a present as well. But then that afternoon Jay is hanging with Jenn Pusiteri, then Adnan, then they go to Heather's er "Kathy's". Then go bury Hae. There was never a mention of the present or Stephanie again, the whole sequence strikes me as strange.

Then the road that goes through the park is fairly busy, seems odd that you would pull over there and drag a dead body out of the trunk, then haul it 127 feet through the woods, and start digging a hole while you have a dead body next to you. That sequence just seems like you are opening yourself to a lot of exposure to get caught.

But what if you pre-dig the grave and have the victim walk on her own to the grave. Maybe it goes something like Don wants some weed, Hae can get a hook up through her ex. Adnan takes her to the woods to do the deal and boom. Jay and Adnan both do it, but Jay's story changes so that he is guilty of accessory after the fact not a conspirator and co-murderer.

yeah, if its his gf's birthday, dont you think Jay would have spent the day with her after she got out of school? instead of hanging out with Jen? seems totally off. did we hear from stephanie? i dont remember

Curious how anyone thinks they can possibly eliminate any one else having motive, let alone Jay. None of us know witf was going on back then w these idiots....any number of people could be motivated to do something as sick as this.

Yeah this. Also I'm really shocked that no one is at all concerned that the drug dealing Rodman look-a-like is really the thing linking Adnan to the murder instead of, you know like, actual physical evidence..

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ab...ode-of-serial/

Haha this was awesome. The MailChimp stuff is great.

Hey, I actually use MailChimp!

Since you didn't listen, I'll explain why Jay may have "admitted" to his part - he received virtually no penalty in exchange for his testimony, which then changed a number of times, both because of lies (that he admits) and because of the cops who have him alone (no lawyer) and off tape for hours.

Regarding his motives, neither you nor I can speak intelligently about the motives of one Jay Doe circa 1999. Assuming there is or is not a motive is a futile exercise.

+1 million. That juror being shocked that Jay didn't serve time likely makes Adnan feel suicidal.

Considering she didn't have a cell phone, what was he supposed to do? Call her parents house... "Is Hae there? No, still missing? Ok thanks bye."

Also, if you murdered someone and conspired to do it and cover it up, perhaps you'd realize that your lack of calling would make you even more of a suspect? I'd say him calling her (especially profusely) make his look more guilty than not calling.
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Last episode today. Episode 11 promised us answers in Episode 12. I will be mad as hell if we don't actually get answers. On the other hand, I don't see how they can have anything conclusive given Adnan's still in jail.

I believe the % chance adnan is innocent is the same % that jay happened to stumble upon hae's car accidentally.

Just finished up. Surprised that Sarah picked a side.

Finale talk:

I was wondering wtf she was smoking. after thinking about it though I think this is just the best (only?) route for her to take if she wants the case reopened/DNA tested. then Jay's DNA can show up and the case could get blown apart (I think she thinks, like we all do, Jay could have easily been much more involved).

one interesting thing about this series is how Sarah treated Jay with kid gloves the entire time. I understand why she had to. but there were definitely times where she wishes she could just spout some of the many logical theories that involve Jay(and maybe Jenn) in a much more prominent role

Finale sucked. We found out nothing. Doubt I listen to next season. Was only mildly interesting because I actually lived and worked in Woodlawn in 05/06.

Yeah, WTF was this crap? I guess the serial rapist decided to kill Hae but not rape her, then called a random kid at her school (Jay) to let him know where he left her car, then asked if Jay could blame the murder on someone else instead. That makes total sense!

I still think the likeliest scenario is that Adnan and Jay both know exactly what happened, but they're both covering it up because the truth would be worse than their individual claims of innocence. I have no idea who actually killed Hae, but I'm not sure it really matters; Jay is guilty of something, and Adnan almost certainly is as well.

I think the serial killer angle is just an excuse to test the dna. They have to come up with some theory in order to re open the evidence.

Lol just lol. You literally can't have missed the point more if you tried.

Clovis,

What did you think of the final episode?