So after wading through 6 pages of trolling, I have decided to make my BBV debute in this politics type thread.
Its interesting how this thread has become mostly an AUS vs. USA type thread, where logic seems to be mostly absent, and trolling is rampent. My 2 cents:

1) I cannot and will not dispute the murder rate in the US, it is significantly higher than (most) of the western world. However, as discussed many times over in this thread, this is a problem with violence and culture, not guns in themselves. The socio-economics of the US cannot be compared to most of AUS and the EU. We are a true melting pot, with the poverty level of many ghettos riveling that of the 3rd world countries we are not allowed to compare this too. The racial and economic diversity in the US, while being the basis for our country, also contributes to vast crime. If you think other countries deal with this problem easily, just look at the race riots in AUS the situation in S. Africa. Large numbers of disenfranchised poor who feel their only hope is crime contribute to a majority of the the homicides in the US.

2) That being said, the argument can be made that without easy access to guns, many crimes could be prevented. JA and Bogan, this seems to be a point you are very set on, and I understand it. However, it is not a reasonable undertaking at this point. It is unrealistic to think we could un-arm the criminal class in the US without vast civil liberties violations, and even then it would be ineffective. We cannot control the flow of illegal narcotics into our country (a multi-billion doller industry), and we will not be able to control criminal access to guns. You can make comments all you want about how this makes the US inferior and full of cowards, but it is fact. We would have better luck de-criminalizing drugs and decreasing their street value than attempting to take guns away from those who use them to protect their livelyhood.

3) If the above paragraph is correct, we have conculded that it would be very unlikely to succesfully disarm those in the US we do not feel safe having guns. If this is the case, we can return to the argument that if we criminalize guns, only criminals will have them. I, and most people would agree that this is a bad thing. If it were possible to go back in time and make it more difficult for criminals to arm themselves, your arguments hold more water. This is not possible however, and with that being the case, the argument for taking guns away from law abiding citizens loses credibility. I am proud that those of you in Australia and other countries are able to defend yourselves with cricket bats and fists, however if a criminal breaks into my house I am not willing to take that chance. Maybe I am a coward. It is also important to understand that fists, bats, boots, knives, ect can kill. I work as a firefighter/paramedic. I spend ~72 hours a week working on an ambulance in mid sized city in the US. I see violence on a daily basis, and murder victims on occasion. People can very effectively injury and kill each other with many things other than guns. I've seen college kids killed in fist fights where they got knocked out and then hit their head on the ground causing sub-dural bleeds and then death. I've also seen people shot through the face with a 9mm pistol. Both people were equally dead.

If you want to write me off as another "redneck" gun loving American, thats fine. I probably don't fit your stereotypes, as I am fit, college educated (uni for those of you outside of the US), I don't live in a trailor, I'm well traveled and work in a job that attempts to give back to my community, and one that most would not describe as "cowardly". I played rugby, and have been in fights. However, I own guns. I own guns to hunt with, and a .45 handgun for personal safety. Due to my line of work, I have recieved death threats, and can be a target due to my access to narcotics. Am I a coward for wanting to be able to protect myself from a potentional armed criminal? I would like to think not, but I can't control your opinions.

Those countries were not similar, they were homogeneous European nations without the racial tension issues. It also left off Northern Ireland, which has the same homicide rate the USA has with way less guns. It's not included in "Britain" on that graph because they showed England and Scotland separately.

It's not fun being a dumb ass and being proven wrong, is it.

Now, prove to me how gun owners are cowards.

Well done on using google, i am proud of you. I am no expert on this issue but i am allowed to have my own point of view. Freedom of speech yes?

I see no need for them to own one at home but i would not class any man or women who defends there nation a coward. They risk there lifes fighting a real problem not one that may or may not rob there house

Freedom of speech works both ways, we also have the freedom to tell you that you are ignorant, incorrect, a coward and a pansy ass urban dweller.

Post your pic, you said you can kick my ass, I want to see. Wear a Guy Fawkes mask or something if you are too much of a pussy to post your pic. My bet is that you are some scrawny kid living in parents basement or some morbidly obese fat ass who couldn't kick the crap of their own boots, otherwise where is the pic?

To need to use a gun to defend yourself is a cowards act. Your a big enough guy, cant fight someone of with your bare hands? Would you not prefer to have your house robbed then by some chance a family member getting shot during the robbery

Well 90% of police officers in the US also own guns personally. Most of them live in Urban areas and are not farmers. You called them cowards, you ignorant ass.

Also, 99% of the population are not the ones that may rob your house. Police officers don't have a monopoly on being non-criminals, they are no different than anyone else in their off duty time.

Yesterday you asked me questions and wanted facts and proof. When I start to provide them all of a sudden you don't want them. which is it? Yes you allowed your point of view even if you wrong,can't prove your point, make up facts, and are just overall wrong and ignorant for calling people cowards. It's I as figured this argument wont go anywhere no matter what evidence I produce, fine by me I don't need to argue anymore after all it's 4L and should be more enjoyable. Case close you lose end thread.

Nice post

Bogan, I don't know if you saw my long post above, but I miss the point of this argument. If I could be sure the robber did not have a weapon, and was not mentally unstable enough to commit violence without provocation, than yes I would rather "risk" having a gun in my house than risk the chance that the intruder did not. In the US at this point it is impossible to rid our criminal element of firearms, and therefore your example is flawed. If I could challenge the intruder to a bare fist fight and he would leave, ok. But thats not realistic, and nor am I over 200 lbs.

When i get the tat done il be putting up some pics for jmitchell you can see then but no way will my face be shown. And as posted in previous threads i am about 6 3 270 pounds. I use brute force in fights, not weapons. You would be what 6 2 220 pound and fairly fit? Its not like you are some tiny ass who cant defend themselfs or there family. I see no need for a gun for protection

Will some Aussie just go to OP house kick the door in and kick his ass already sowe can end this thread. He really gives others in your country a bad name and should get his ass kicked.

+1

So what your saying is it is more that the criminals are the cowards who are using guns the wrong way where as most of the rest use them for hunting and so on? The thing i see is that sure the crims may have guns but doesnt you having a gun cause more of a risk to your family then non gun owners. Do crims target houses where there is no gun present. And balla i am a city person, i have never lived in the out back or went hunting in my time but i have been around some very shady ppl who thank god did not have easy access to guns

The other Aussies in this thread agree with me tho. Martin Bryant has left a very sour taste in our mouths and that wont change in the next thirty years

It's going to be funny when some anti-gun fanatics house get robbed and they wish they had a gun.

Not to mention comparing the whole US with countries that are smaller than Minnesota is kinda dumb. Let's compare all of the UE which is still smaller than the US and I am sure they will level out. Our whole country is half a continent and as for Canada more than half there country isn't even populated by humans.

And Australia common they are a nation build from England's criminal.

Yes we are built from ex convicts so you would think we should have a massive murder rate yet we dont.

That's what happens when you are England's bitches just like Canada being the US's bitches. J/K

1. Not every one who breaks into your house intends to rob you. Some want to rape, others want to kill. Would you watch somebody rape your wife and kids? Just read this aricle recently about this very thing, in London of all places: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rmed-gang.html If you'd watch them rape your family, would you watch them kill your wife and kids?

Now, watch this video, then tell me that everyone who invades your house just wants to rob you:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/456363...the_white_man/

This was a speech in America to a Harlem (New York) audience who cheered his every word.

2. According to surveys, the primary reason people in the US have guns is for recreation, hunting or target shooting, NOT self defense. So how is having a gun for hunting or target shooting being a coward.

I have never been in an altercation (I'm 6'7" 220lbs...go to the gym and work out etc etc) but I do own two firearms. I handle firearms with respect and would never dream of shooting someone unless they unlawfully entered my home. I have no doubt that I can handle myself in an altercation but if two or more people decided to enter my home I'm not going to try and reason with them: nor would I dream of trying to 'fight fair' with them. They entered my home without invite and they know they are breaking the law. Once they have entered my home I can only assume they are there to cause harm and I will defend myself: going into that situation without an edge makes no sense. I will end any threat to my person quickly and with absolute decisiveness.
Any homeowner who is smaller than me would do well to have a firearm in order to properly defend themselves.

Bogan4life I feel that your argument is flawed: you are creating a situation that is easy for you to get out of: you against an unarmed attacker who just wants your stuff. What if three men entered your home? Do you honestly feel that you could defeat all three of them with no weapon and no damage to yourself?
fwiw I hope you and everyone on this forum never find yourself in any type of violent situation.

Hm maybe I´d rather call the police and not try to be bruce ****ing willis lol.

Seriously is that like the only real argument for owning a gun? What you gonna do when you get robbed? If you have to think about stuff like that you´d better move to a safer place.

Your crime rate in several areas did go up (of course you don't look at the facts) sense you passed the the 96 gun law. As well as your murder rate has stayed the same. Murders didn't go down like you think they did.

Bogan- I would absolutly say that criminals are cowards who are using guns in the wrong way, while most of the legitimate gun owning population in the US does not commit crimes with them. I honestly do not see how my owning a gun in a safe and responsible mannor causes more of a risk to my family/friends, than a non-gun owner. If I felt that it did I would not own a gun, and that is the truth. I don't know if criminals target houses where they know guns are not present, as it is hard to tell who owns guns and who doesn't, but I would imagine that if they were sure I had a gun, and my neighbor didn't, they would attempt to rob him before me.

For one the cops are useless. Maybe I should move to England where it is just as bad as NY?

Has anybody here that is against ppl owning guns ever go to a gun range and shoot a gun? It is actually pretty fun.