Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

MTT Community MTT sweat and official threads as well as various contests and events

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-09-2014, 01:13 PM   #76
whitesnow
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 153
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars MikeJ View Post
The issue being discussed here is table balancing in tournaments.

Table balancing is the process of moving players from tables having more players to tables with fewer players so that all tables in a tournament are populated as equally as possible. This balancing consists of a sequence of operations, each of which moves a single player. At present the first factor is whether a player is sitting out. It was set up this way in order to minimize the impact to the playing experience. If a player is sitting out, they presumably are not playing, and therefore moving tables has no impact to their playing experience.

As implied in the original post, there turns out to be an exploit here that we didn’t foresee when the table balancing algorithm was designed. Some players have come to realize that sitting out increases their chances of being moved to a different table, and use this exploit when they want to be moved.

It has only recently come to our attention in PokerStars Poker Room Management that some people are exploiting the sitting out portion of the table balancing algorithm. Since it came to our attention a few weeks ago, we have been working on a change. I think it is worth noting here that our desire to change this has nothing to do with the fact that it was “made public” in the OP. Rather, our desire to make a change was and is driven by the desire to offer the best poker experience possible.

The idea that we’re currently pursuing is to simply change the sitting out portion of the algorithm to be x number of hands. With such a change, sitting out will only be considered for a table change if that sitting out has happened for x consecutive hands. X can be any number we wish. The higher the number, then the less exploitable this becomes, but we would want to choose a number low enough that sitting out status could still be considered, due to the aforementioned desire to minimize impact to the playing experience. If you have feedback regarding that number, please share it.

Like any software change, this one will require time to write, test, and implement, but the ball is rolling.

Regards,
Mike Jones
Tournaments Team Manager
PokerStars Poker Room Management
in my opionion the moving process should be independent of sitting out players. players that get moved should be chosen randomly. doesnt matter if some players get moved for example 5 times and some 2 times in one tournament.

regarding playing experience: most players multitable anyway. they are not affected (they dont have to wait for cards because they play at their other tables in the meantime). Sitting out players are "free chips/money" for the other players at their tables as long as they sit out. Why would you try to take this advantage away and bring all sitting out players together at one table (if registration is still open and a new table is created) and give this advantage to players who get seated with them?
to increase playing experience for 1 or 2-tabling players there are probably much more effective ways.
whitesnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2014, 04:36 PM   #77
Rupert
Pooh-Bah
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: suffolk
Posts: 4,773
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
Sounds like a good change. Doesn't even need to be that many hands and it ruins the play.
Has to be quite a lot in some tournies, $1ks+ with a slow structure if you get a tough table could just sit out a few orbits and it'll be worth it. Does it really bother fun players that much that it has to depend on people sitting out? Couldn't you just do something like take random table of table with too many players, take next big blind, put as close as possible to BB on next table? Or even just take the directly equivalent position?
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2014, 06:37 PM   #78
aaronbeen
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Micheladas, Minraises, and MMA
Posts: 504
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Right now you can sit out in late position and just sit in if you want to play. Actually sitting out and blinding out is about -17bb/100 pre ante.
aaronbeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2014, 07:28 PM   #79
Rusemandingo
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Rusemandingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Playas de Rosarito
Posts: 14,017
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars MikeJ View Post
The issue being discussed here is table balancing in tournaments.

...

Regards,
Mike Jones
Tournaments Team Manager
PokerStars Poker Room Management
Who?
Rusemandingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2014, 07:43 PM   #80
thehempy
adept
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 959
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

I can't understand why anyone would want this process to be anything but completely random :S
thehempy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2014, 01:13 AM   #81
Rob_10108
A GIF from God
 
Rob_10108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,344
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusemandingo View Post
From the swisher house obv
Rob_10108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2014, 04:05 AM   #82
Tlick
newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 46
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars MikeJ View Post
The issue being discussed here is table balancing in tournaments.

Table balancing is the process of moving players from tables having more players to tables with fewer players so that all tables in a tournament are populated as equally as possible. This balancing consists of a sequence of operations, each of which moves a single player. At present the first factor is whether a player is sitting out. It was set up this way in order to minimize the impact to the playing experience. If a player is sitting out, they presumably are not playing, and therefore moving tables has no impact to their playing experience.

As implied in the original post, there turns out to be an exploit here that we didn’t foresee when the table balancing algorithm was designed. Some players have come to realize that sitting out increases their chances of being moved to a different table, and use this exploit when they want to be moved.

It has only recently come to our attention in PokerStars Poker Room Management that some people are exploiting the sitting out portion of the table balancing algorithm. Since it came to our attention a few weeks ago, we have been working on a change. I think it is worth noting here that our desire to change this has nothing to do with the fact that it was “made public” in the OP. Rather, our desire to make a change was and is driven by the desire to offer the best poker experience possible.

The idea that we’re currently pursuing is to simply change the sitting out portion of the algorithm to be x number of hands. With such a change, sitting out will only be considered for a table change if that sitting out has happened for x consecutive hands. X can be any number we wish. The higher the number, then the less exploitable this becomes, but we would want to choose a number low enough that sitting out status could still be considered, due to the aforementioned desire to minimize impact to the playing experience. If you have feedback regarding that number, please share it.

Like any software change, this one will require time to write, test, and implement, but the ball is rolling.

Regards,
Mike Jones
Tournaments Team Manager
PokerStars Poker Room Management
Thanks for chiming in!

(i) People would perhaps still find it profitable to choose to "sit out". And even if table balancing is the issue here, it is relevant to note that what PS calls "sitting out" is not actually sitting out [because if you pick up AA you can often "return" to the table].

(ii) I have a life... but designing such an algorithm to depend on a thing such as "sitting out" frequency [especially without informing players of this] annoys me a little bit per se.
Tlick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2014, 07:52 AM   #83
davidv1213
Vampy
 
davidv1213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posts: 3,473
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitesnow View Post
in my opionion the moving process should be independent of sitting out players. players that get moved should be chosen randomly. doesnt matter if some players get moved for example 5 times and some 2 times in one tournament.
Agree
davidv1213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2014, 11:55 AM   #84
hukel 9
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 513
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Probably not a popular idea but...

(i)To avoid sitting out only to sit back in with big hand:

If you are dealt a hand and NOT sitting out, then you cannot sit out until your hand is folded. If you are dealt a hand while you ARE sitting out, you cannot play it. You must sit back in and wait for next hand.

(ii) To avoid sitting out to be moved to more profitable table/situation

Put in your ToS that it is now illegal. Players sitting out for x hands in one tournament while not sitting out (and playing) in another are automatically disqualified from all tournaments actively being played. x should be 30ish hands. Tournament funds won if caught during this illegal activity will be not be awarded.


*As with all PS punishment, case by case exemptions can always be made if after the fact the player can prove why he/she should not be punished.

Last edited by hukel 9; 10-10-2014 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Change the ToS not just the algorithm
hukel 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2014, 09:30 PM   #85
Sect7G
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calling a spade a spade
Posts: 10,824
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by hukel 9 View Post
Probably not a popular idea but...

(i)To avoid sitting out only to sit back in with big hand:

If you are dealt a hand and NOT sitting out, then you cannot sit out until your hand is folded. If you are dealt a hand while you ARE sitting out, you cannot play it. You must sit back in and wait for next hand.

(ii) To avoid sitting out to be moved to more profitable table/situation

Put in your ToS that it is now illegal. Players sitting out for x hands in one tournament while not sitting out (and playing) in another are automatically disqualified from all tournaments actively being played. x should be 30ish hands. Tournament funds won if caught during this illegal activity will be not be awarded.


*As with all PS punishment, case by case exemptions can always be made if after the fact the player can prove why he/she should not be punished
.
But what about the rec player that's sitting out and doesn't even realize it if his tables are stacked. Him being blinded out is punishment enough imo. If they disqualified him from other tourneys after they were completed then others would get a bump in pay and if he argues that it's an accident then people would then lose the bump. Far too complicated.

The sit out until next hand is dealt is not a bad idea. But the best solution to this issue is just moving people when tables break with no consideration for if the guys sitting out or not.
Sect7G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2014, 12:39 AM   #86
hukel 9
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 513
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G View Post
But what about the rec player that's sitting out and doesn't even realize it if his tables are stacked. Him being blinded out is punishment enough imo. If they disqualified him from other tourneys after they were completed then others would get a bump in pay and if he argues that it's an accident then people would then lose the bump. Far too complicated.

The sit out until next hand is dealt is not a bad idea. But the best solution to this issue is just moving people when tables break with no consideration for if the guys sitting out or not.
Simple, when they are 2 hands away from meeting the disqualifying Xth hand, a message popups, bringing up the table that they are sitting out on. Sitting back in, to avoid the disqualification, automatically sets them back to 0 hands sitting out... so those attempting to take advantage of being moved do not gain said advantage.

Last edited by hukel 9; 10-11-2014 at 12:46 AM.
hukel 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2014, 06:24 AM   #87
biceps
old hand
 
biceps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 1,473
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by hukel 9 View Post
Probably not a popular idea but...

(i)To avoid sitting out only to sit back in with big hand:

If you are dealt a hand and NOT sitting out, then you cannot sit out until your hand is folded. If you are dealt a hand while you ARE sitting out, you cannot play it. You must sit back in and wait for next hand.

(ii) To avoid sitting out to be moved to more profitable table/situation

Put in your ToS that it is now illegal. Players sitting out for x hands in one tournament while not sitting out (and playing) in another are automatically disqualified from all tournaments actively being played. x should be 30ish hands. Tournament funds won if caught during this illegal activity will be not be awarded.


*As with all PS punishment, case by case exemptions can always be made if after the fact the player can prove why he/she should not be punished.
I assume you've never multi-tabled or grinded for hours. I also assume you have no idea about software engineering and what it'd take to (God forbid) imply your ideas as opposed to what PS Mike offered.

(i) There's also this special thing called "5min break" every hour and if for example you're taking one while using 3rd party software to auto-register, the idea of not being able to sit-back immediately when you get back to grinding is just ****ing retarded (Excuse my french but your idea is way worse than just "unpopular")

(ii) Please read post #74 again because it looks like you've missed it. PS has offered a solution and they're working on it. Punto.

Overall, I think your ideas are reminiscent of the spanish inquisition. It's not like we're talking punishing people for extreme cases of cheating ITT.
biceps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2014, 06:30 AM   #88
LostOstrich
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LostOstrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Head in the sand
Posts: 15,486
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by biceps View Post
Overall, I think your ideas are reminiscent of the spanish inquisition.
I for one did not expect the Spanish Inquisition.
LostOstrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2014, 01:46 PM   #89
Rusemandingo
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Rusemandingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Playas de Rosarito
Posts: 14,017
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by hukel 9 View Post
Probably not a popular idea but...

(i)To avoid sitting out only to sit back in with big hand:

If you are dealt a hand and NOT sitting out, then you cannot sit out until your hand is folded. If you are dealt a hand while you ARE sitting out, you cannot play it. You must sit back in and wait for next hand.

(ii) To avoid sitting out to be moved to more profitable table/situation

Put in your ToS that it is now illegal. Players sitting out for x hands in one tournament while not sitting out (and playing) in another are automatically disqualified from all tournaments actively being played. x should be 30ish hands. Tournament funds won if caught during this illegal activity will be not be awarded.


*As with all PS punishment, case by case exemptions can always be made if after the fact the player can prove why he/she should not be punished.
Or just randomize the table switching maybe?
Rusemandingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2014, 03:57 PM   #90
Thibavol
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Geneva
Posts: 927
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Sadly it's not working on my Spin n' Go tables...
Thibavol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2014, 08:36 PM   #91
AnotherMakiaveli
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 900
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitesnow View Post
in my opionion the moving process should be independent of sitting out players. players that get moved should be chosen randomly. doesnt matter if some players get moved for example 5 times and some 2 times in one tournament.

regarding playing experience: most players multitable anyway. they are not affected (they dont have to wait for cards because they play at their other tables in the meantime). Sitting out players are "free chips/money" for the other players at their tables as long as they sit out. Why would you try to take this advantage away and bring all sitting out players together at one table (if registration is still open and a new table is created) and give this advantage to players who get seated with them?
to increase playing experience for 1 or 2-tabling players there are probably much more effective ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv1213 View Post
Agree
+1

and how is that contributing to a positive game expirience?? positive game expirience for the sitting out players who are not there anyways? who makes such decisions? it's a simple problem, no need for a complicated solution.

Last edited by AnotherMakiaveli; 10-12-2014 at 08:47 PM.
AnotherMakiaveli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2014, 08:50 PM   #92
DoGGz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DoGGz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: in the streets, in the lab
Posts: 17,312
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherMakiaveli View Post
+1

and how is that contributing to a positive game expirience?? positive game expirience for the sitting out players who are not there anyways?
No, a positive game experience for those who are not sitting out so they don't get moved as often.
DoGGz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2014, 09:55 PM   #93
AnotherMakiaveli
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 900
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz View Post
No, a positive game experience for those who are not sitting out so they don't get moved as often.
is there that many players sitting out? especially if this "trick" will not work anymore? is getting moved 5% less even noticable?? (5% is just a guess maybe it is more like 1% of players sitting out).
AnotherMakiaveli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2014, 11:09 PM   #94
ShowUthExit
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ShowUthExit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: $1 mini ftops warmup CHAMPION
Posts: 6,983
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

what is the negative part about getting moved tables online again?
ShowUthExit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2014, 12:03 AM   #95
OMGClayDol
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
OMGClayDol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,822
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

should be randomised completely...
OMGClayDol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2014, 08:09 AM   #96
LostOstrich
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LostOstrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Head in the sand
Posts: 15,486
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

I can see why Stars felt the need to create such a complex algorithm, and their heart was in the right place imo. They didn't want confused recreational players getting shifted around dozens of times per hour in huge-field tournaments, and wanted to ensure that the posting of blinds remained as equitable as possible especially around the bubble. They figured that moving the players who aren't actually playing would be a good way of minimising disruption, but of course it's turned out that such a system is open to abuse so they're changing it. No biggie.

As a side point I'm pretty cross with myself for never having figured this trick out!
LostOstrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2014, 08:39 AM   #97
blakkman08
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
blakkman08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: LOLdonkaments
Posts: 12,548
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

It should be random. End of story
blakkman08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2014, 09:33 AM   #98
wildman75
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 546
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by hukel 9 View Post
Probably not a popular idea but...

(i)To avoid sitting out only to sit back in with big hand:

If you are dealt a hand and NOT sitting out, then you cannot sit out until your hand is folded. If you are dealt a hand while you ARE sitting out, you cannot play it. You must sit back in and wait for next hand.

(ii) To avoid sitting out to be moved to more profitable table/situation

Put in your ToS that it is now illegal. Players sitting out for x hands in one tournament while not sitting out (and playing) in another are automatically disqualified from all tournaments actively being played. x should be 30ish hands. Tournament funds won if caught during this illegal activity will be not be awarded.


*As with all PS punishment, case by case exemptions can always be made if after the fact the player can prove why he/she should not be punished.
It def should be random or as close as possible.
I agree with your first point. Will stop a little bit of the scummy biz going on.
wildman75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2014, 10:50 AM   #99
TeamTrousers
talks the talk
 
TeamTrousers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Remembering when stars was good
Posts: 12,905
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

As soon as you create complex rules there will be some people who will look for the loopholes and exploit them. Just look at tax law for how NOT to do it.

Here there is absolutely no need to overcomplicate things. Your playing experience argument is off the mark. Recs aren't stupid, they don't need to be insulated against the "confusion" of changing tables. Pretty sure they realise that, for a tournament of 50, 100 or 1,000 tables of players to end up at one single final table, people are going to have to move. Adding an extra rule around some arbitrary number X of hands of sitting out, even if the value of that number X is not publicly known, adds to the complexity and is not necessary. Furthermore, it has the potential to recreate the very loophole you want to avoid. Don't repeat your albeit well-intentioned mistake, now you know the problem it has created.

If table switching is 100% random, without favour to any particular subset of players registered in the tournament, then there isn't a loophole for anyone to exploit.

Remember what that Johnson bloke said. KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid
TeamTrousers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2014, 05:12 PM   #100
dogsballs
veteran
 
dogsballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,296
Re: the 'sit out trick' on PokerStars

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakkman08 View Post
It should be random. End of story
This obv.

I'm amazed it wasn't random the whole time (and prolly stupid for never knowing this and using it myself).
dogsballs is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online