Yes I can definitely see your point too. One who make reparations is clearly a step back in the right direction. (Though as a sidenote, there are some other more troubling aspects specifically regarding this case to consider, imho.)

I just took issue with seemingly praising/forgiving immediately after returning something to the expected normal state as opposed to rising above the mistakes and damage. Second chances can/should happen, but only after a person has actually done something to earn it. For me, making whole isn't enough.

Being compared downwards to something worse rather than upwards to something better doesn't seem to be a mentality that would help advance a community--it would seem to just keep us in the muck.

Not trying to condone Ben's actions in anyway, it's clear what he did is incredibly scummy and props to Mark for outing him. With that said, there is a difference between someone who does something like this once, and someone who has done it multiple times. There is also a difference between someone who tries to make good on they're mistake by paying people back (which it appears he is doing), and someone who does not. Of course we will always have to do wonder now since he has done it once already if he will do it again, and perhaps he has done it in the past as well. But mistakes are made, and there are certainly varying levels of mistakes. I remember a while back Tmay420 was found to have sold over 100% of himself for a tournament that he ended up winning. Not sure whatever happened with that but I haven't heard anything about it in a while and he regularly plays high stakes tournaments. Again, I'm not trying to defend Ben's actions just trying to point out that there are differences to situations (albeit perhaps small ones) that should be noted.

I think the issue there was that he tried to buy back his action at the last minute from people or something? IIRC he caught the mistake before it was too late and people were just unhappy with the specific way he handled it. Been a while so I could be wrong on some details, but that situation was definitely very far from "sold 130%, only told people cause I got caught"

Nate has a valid point about the need to incentivize some sort of repayment rather than just snap perma-blacklisting the guy, but beyond the simple need to incentivize repayment I see no reason at all to extend any benefit of the doubt here

I agree with Nate and would not support permanent blacklisting if he pays back, but just wouldn't invest in him myself or recommend him to friends.

LOL at #tripsaver

this

swaps should be repaid at the 1.25 markup he sold for since that's the presumed value he was deceptively representing to them

edit: I propose an undertitle for kidcardiff: -140% roi

not sure if this is what you meant, but I think he absolutely needs to be perma showered with 0% possibility of ever being reinstated in 2+2 marketplace or else the marketplace is a joke

the rest of poker can decide whether or not to ever deal w him again (if they hate money)

CC: Gary Becker: http://www.nber.org/chapters/c3625.pdf

Theives steal because the +EV of stealing is greater than the -ev of getting caught.

And my 2 cents on Ben (having been someone that's invested in him a few times) is he ****ed up. He made a mistake and owned up to it. He probably was really drunk or not in the right mindset. No sense in beating him up over all of this forever. I know "respected" people in the community who have done much worse and they have been given a second pass. Not to say he deserves a second chance but he atleast is acting in a reasonable manner after the fact

Not sure if I'll be giving Ben a second chance, but atleast he is trying to make amends and make good on his mistake. More than I can say of a lot of other people that have gotten caught in the past.

We are human and we all **** up in our lives.

Yeah I can get on board with the whole "Not in same category as unrepentant scammers" line of thinking, but that category definitely shouldn't allow him the privilege of selling on the 2p2 MP. He should be required to do much more to regain even a decent status in the poker world (e.g. earn trust of his close peers who will hard vouch for his future transactions). The MP has its entire foundation is based on trust between strangers and unless you can somehow mark all his future offerings on there so that clueless investors would be warned, then it just wouldn't be right at this point. Let's not forget this was premeditated and done to people he was friendly with IRL, not some random mistake or even a slow paying of strangers.

I agree criminals obviously think they can get away with it which is why they commit the crimes. But I'm talking about a person who wouldn't commit a crime (or future ones). I think those guys more motivated by self-preservation from punishment rather than knowing people will praise or forgive them.

And while I also agree on not "beating" up Ben, I think this is way too early to claim it's gotten excessive yet--this literally happened a couple days ago. I think it's totally appropriate at this point to vent/react/cry for punishment etc. And on that note, the punishment should also be appropriate for the act (losing MP privileges, etc but NOT getting berated in public or stones thrown at him).

Completely agreed on the above. He deserves all of the above punishments. People are taking it a little far with the "GG career" and other comments. People have done a lot worse and still have poker careers deservingly or not.

Now if he was being belligerant and not accepting of his mistake, I think he deserves all the hate we can give him. I am the first to admit I have a gambiling problem, and until you've lost everything you have and are now in a negative net worth position in life, its really hard to understand the mindset of a degenerate. It is a sick and sad life we choose to live. Its the descisions we make after the fact that define us as people.

And I'm in no way defending his actions. Hope no one sees it that way. We just need to be mindful of the industry we work in and how ****ed up it really is. Our goals as a community should be to set up a system wherein scammers are not allowed back into the ecosystem. Berating Ben will not solve for that and will not stop the next schmuck from scamming us. We should be focusing on solutions for solving these issues vs taking our anger out on Ben.

amen jasbral

The standard follow-up to making this type of mistake in the poker world SHOULD be:

1. Admit it immediately.
2. Profusely apologize for it with as few excuses and/or rationalizations as possible.
3. Don't expect to be trusted/respected by the general poker community or act like you should have the same privileges anytime soon.
4. Begin repaying money ASAP (and see #5).
5. Ask only your close associates (who should be aware/sympathetic of your situation) to take on any of your financial burdens in the near future (including the debts your act accrued) and not ask it of any others, including affected parties, online strangers, or otherwise unwitting people.
6. Eventually build up enough rep/trust with those close associates that if you do re-enter the public to do transactions, those close associates will hard vouch for you and put their reputation and money (both of which they must verifiably have) on the line.
7. Never commit strike 2.

If 5 and 6 are not possible or you are unwilling to do them, then you might want to reconsider your path or participation in this community. With regards to #5, I never understood how people will defend a friend/associate who does something like this but not offer to take on the debt themselves.

Did I miss anything?

Don't be a scammer in the first place .

points 1 and 2 should definitely be void of any lies/deceptive statements. Ben failed that here.

It's infuriating for me that he was able to sell 10k worth of action for a 5k when I didn't sell out my package for the main, so I might be recognizing my personal incentive to ban him and overcompensating, but there seems to be a group of people who think this was a one time mistake and will probably continue to buy his pieces.

Marketplace approval has never been a 2p2 endorsement of the individual and keeping it public helps protect investors. I think I would support his reinstatement if 100% (140%) of the victims of this event agree. Can I support his reinstatement to the marketplace while recommending that people not buy?

But after knowing someone with approval had attempted to scam someone, maintaining that MP approval would seem to be an implied endorsement (w/o liability for 2p2 obviously). You run the risk of letting a lot of people unwittingly invest without seeing this thread or being aware of a seller's rep.

If MP buyers want to invest in a guy who has made this grave error in judgement over you in the future then 1) it's their choice and 2) there must be something really appealing in his package/unappealing in yours.

I can't comment for Ben but I know from many personal experiences that when you're in a hole gambling (as a degenerate), there is almost no way that more gambling does not occur. I am not excusing his actions in any way but I doubt this was a premeditated scam and I think this fact is highly important to his future treatment within the community. He has said that he will right the financial wrongs and that is also important. This isn't someone who is trying to steal 5 figures by going into hiding, it is clearly someone that has gone for a gamble when he shouldn't have and not had the liquid cash to play the event after losing causing him to do even less rational things. I know, I've been there.

There are threads on here about scammers who purposely lie to steal money then vanish from the face of the earth and there also threads about stakes gone wrong where the backers get repaid; should the two sets of people be tarred with the same brush in your opinion? (Genuine question)

I'm not trying to defend Ben per se but I have been where he has been in terms of being completely irrational during gambling so I can empathise. I think he needs to pay back more than what he was staked for given his seemingly liquid state upon return to the UK, just my opinion.

NO ^

If you're asking should they get the same punishments/reactions? No. But that's only because the worse scammers don't usually get ENOUGH punishment. There's usually very little recourse for victims in these situations outside of tarnishing their names with a NVG post or website and making it known far and wide. And that's not enough.

If you're asking if they should both have selling privileges taken away on public marketplaces? Then yes.

I don't think Ben deserves the website treatment that some of these guys get if he pays everything back, but no I definitely don't think he should dilute the 2p2 MP and damage it's integrity by selling on there.

that's why I suggested the "-140% roi" undertitle

clearly different cases and that's why I think the victims could decide if he should be reinstated

I think it's very clear that there was malicious intent and to me that is the most dissatisfying part of this whole ordeal. I would have a lot more sympathy for somebody who had their back against the wall and needed to pull off a miracle to make ends meet. Degenerate benders can be very deluding and make good people do horrible things. That being said I think without question the person in context should have MP privileges revoked for life as it is an insult to honest people in the community and dishonest transactions can deter investors from all MP transactions (Even those that are honest and deserve investment). Not to mention that it sheds a very dark light on the MP and the game of poker in general. By sweeping this type of fiasco under the table it demonstrates to others that MP dishonesty is not harshly policed and can be easy to get away with. High stakes regs are often idolized by those in the community it is too bad they are in no way obligated to maintain high moral standards and set good examples for those less fortunate. (Although selling action they are 100% obligated.) Hope y'all get it sorted.

Fwiw, on the whole thing being premeditated or not, I wrote Ben the day before the Venetian main if he wanted to come out to XS with us.

He replied: "dilemma.. I was thinking of playing the Venetian main tomorrow."

And next: "Yeah gonna have to pass as I'm gonna be selling action for it and don't want to let investors down by being hungover."

This was around 8-9pm. Seems like there was no malicious intent at that time.

By no means am I taking Ben's side here. I'm disgusted. Just trying to shed some extra light on it all. Something must've gone horribly wrong later that night.

He owed me a refund of $852 from this package: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...onaco-1525404/ but due to the different countries we were going to handle it on paypal, but he said "I can usually get money to paypal, but its dry right now. I can do international bank transfer for larger amounts" and said he would give me 2% of the package at the below link (which I think is the one you mean, though actually I don't see a Venetian $5K in it) at a discount for the $852. Now he owes me a refund from that one. And I wonder if anything happened with the aforementioned package.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0