There is a thread in the internet poker forum section.

Doggz you've been around long enough to know that players not caring about others problems is precisely why Stars attacks each group one at a time and not collectively. It seems this year they've finally decided to come after MTTs.

Sect7G you have my massive respect!!!
This is indeed what we the players should not do. This is the way Stars is dividing us. People not caring for eachothers problems anymore and all stays somewhat under the radar with every single move!
It was nice to see that others did care.
I too am an MTT player that mostly plays MTTs and SNGs. But yes occasionally I do like to play cashgame especially with the promos.
Thnx for the heads up I will look for the thread again and post it there!!

Originally Posted by broken_jia
Agreed. You forgot to mention NLO8, which is super successful and fun as a PKO because equities run so closely.

Exactly! It ruins PLO way more than NLHE. Not playing much NLO8, but it's ofc the same, given comparably small preflop edges. Only the fact that People often chop pots makes it a bit less of a pain in the arse to play them, I think.

better structure for bounty builders pls with 7 min levels its just another turbo. at the very least start with 10 min levels.

Perhaps I'm not explaining properly. There are two separate points:

1) Games with Polarizing pre-flop/pre-draw/3rd street Equities are not suitable for PKOs.
-Games like NL2-7 Single Draw and NL 5 card draw fall into this category.
-A bottom 20% hand in NL2-7 is like KQ876, which has 10-15% (?) equity against a MP opener's range.
-In a game like NL2-7 Triple Draw, KQ876 can draw 2 or 3 and have twice as much equity against something like 258xx..

Probably not the best example, but it speaks to the distribution of equities in a game. Same goes for Razz and even Holdem to some extent.

2) The more fun a game, the more suited it is to be a PKO.
-Split pot games are more fun because chops happen often. Due to this, equities also run closer.
-Games where equities run closer give short stacks a better chance of coming back, whereas in game like Razz or NL 5 card draw, there are frequently spots where a player goes card dead and goes from 20 big blinds to 8 big blinds after a couple of orbits and level jumps.

I play a bunch of PkO MTTs and they're not as high variance as you think. A lot of players are over estimating the EV of winning the bounty against a shove and underestimating the EV of their stack if they fold instead.

Could we get a regular speed zoom tournament? $11 buy in, deep stacks structure. Would be awesome. Please.

++++

Bounty builders have a lot of intermediate levels, but that doesn't really matter when your customers don't understand.

Did you see who posted about bounty builders? Who are you even talking to? Regs asked for the structure to be improved, why do you post something presumably directed to Stars and mention customers not understanding?

I fail to see how this is anything but an opinion. Why is it good when everyone is forced to call an all in below a certain threshhold? Why is it bad that you just have to throw away KQ876? I favor PKO in nlhe over PLO. I suspect I favor PKO in 2-7 single draw over PKO in PLO8. I also suspect NL 2-7 triple draw, much like PLO, would be a complete gamble flipfest. Sounds like fun, once in a while. As a standard format, so much worse than a freezeout.

Fun is entirely subjective. I like O8 for the most part, but flipping and splitting is not fun at all. Your shortstack having an easier time coming back argument is nonsense, you have more equity but you lose all your fold equity. The only thing that seems more stupid than plo PKO is any limit game as a PKO, forcing the whole table to put in whatever bets preflop and many postflop when someone is all in. Again, fun once in a while, just like flipping a coin and betting 10$ on it is fun sometimes.

Well, Luke's taken the former $27 non-Holdem games and arbitrarily slapped PKO onto some of the games (PL Badugi, NL Single Draw, PL 5 Card Draw, NL 5 Card Draw, etc). These aren't proven formats and there isn't an exact science on what criterion a game should have to be made PKO vs non-PKO. This format has only been out for ~2 years!

This was just an example of spots when you have 15 BBs or less in NL Single Draw where you are handcuffed and can't do anything but fold if you don't get dealt anything with equity. I've only played the $2.20 PKOs so far and find myself short real fast after the 60/120 level, despite this having 10 min levels. It probably has to do with antes being 25% of BB.

Agree that PKO in limit is stupid. I think there used to be an $11 HORSE MTT that was PKO, don't see it anymore.

Fun is definitely a subjective word. However, you can't just have games which appeal to the pros where they have insane ROIs and the fish eventually run away from the games. The edges in non-holdem games are already huge and the pros should be willing to sacrifice some short-term EV for the longevity of the game.

Yes, I see who made the comment. He thinks time per level how you define the speed of a structure. That's just not the case.

I could make a 5 minute level structure that was slower than the Super Tuesday. What matters is not time per level but how fast the BB increases.

It's extremely common that MTT players only look at the time per level to judge how fast a structure is. Live players do it, online players do it. This thread is full of it. I know you've been following this thread so you certainly have seen it.

Because Luke has made this mistake more than once, and, well, the customers don't understand the actual speed of a tournament? What is unclear? He called the bounty builders just another turbo.

Let me actually be as clear as I can be. I am not saying bounty builders are deep stacked or have long runtime. I'm saying that having them run with 7 minute blinds brings unnecessary confusion.

Part of Luke's job is to sell his product to players, and if they don't understand what he has - they think Bounty Builders are turbo when they are reg speed - then he should fix it.

Yes, but you are mistaking the poster for a "customer that doesn't understand". Bounty builders really don't play deep, FTs have an average of 20bb etc. It was way different and way better in the previous version of them.

(relevant proof : )

You can see the average is below 20bb and the level hasn't changed very recently. The situation isn't very different in the higher buy-in ones. They average stack goes downhill after like an hour and a half and never really recovers.

structures are better.
You'd get 12 or 15 min lvls once HU bro

Yes, once in a blue moon the length of blindevels increases. Would be way better if half the field gets paid thou. Too much monies @ft as well

It's irritating to even post here i except ad answer from luke, as a customer i'm hoping he will look into this matter. doggz u don't even play much why the hell ur even bothered to talk about the structure when u literally have no clue. someone makes a post u come either defending or praising the changes its sickening. it be just better if u stop posting in this specific thread because in no ways your helping the mtt community. oh why would you ? you don't even play much so it doesn't hamper you.

Anyone knows whats up with micro millions in 2016, since PS wants to do so much for the micro players?

We are only approaching halfway through the year. Click the blue arrow to go to Luke's full post:

@broken_jia
I know you are helping PS to improve(/destroy) the schedule by working with them more closely than just ITT, but how much do you get paid to suddenly also force these terrible PSKO-formats down the customers throat in non-nlhe-variants, despite the fact that nearly all of them become absolutely unplayble in lots of spots?

broken_jia is a bigger sell-out than Metallica after load and reload, imho.
Few years ago, he has done such a great job helping to improve O8-schedule (and partly other variants), but now he is advocating to ruin the playing experience of non-nlhe games happily, after PS started to work with him more closely...

What the heck are you even talking about?
You are trying to fool us harder than Luke ever tried, you blatantly obvious sell-out!

There are no "pros" playing only Mixed MTT's, because there is not a single daily game higher than 27$.
Nobody has "insane ROIs", since field-sizes never even go above 180 man in any daily or weekly MTT above 2,20$, and you need lots for focus for the 3 Stud-variants (3 of 5 games in HORSE), as well as for 2-7 TD (4 of 8 games in 8-Game), which those pros you mention don't have, since they play lots of NLHE-MTT's aside of the mixed-games.

And if you talk about longlivety of the games, why are the bigger buy-ins like 82$ Weekly 8-Game and HORSE now Re-entry up to 3 times? For the longlivety, ha??
You know all of that yourself very well!
Hence why you can't tell me that you believe the deceptive crap you post on here yourself, not even online, I'm sure. Just stop posting ITT, except when telling us how much Amaya is paying you, please!

Ouch, kinda harsh words when you don't really know all the facts.

Luke is the ones behind all of the changes in the new schedule, the only influence I had was making the Omanias special on Saturdays. I'm far from pleased with these changes, but have a day job (not with Pokerstars) that takes us most of my daily attention/focus. Here is how the decision making process was made when the new schedule for mixed games: Here's a post that explains my input.

My post the other day itt was to agree that NL 2-7 Single Draw was not a great game for a PKO. Not sure how it spiraled to being about PKOs, but I will say that this format has helped grow NLO8 over the last year.

No I'm not. He's a customer and he doesn't understand. They aren't turbos. I don't care if he's a reg.

You make a good argument that they need more levels and more time as they get deep. If the other guy had written this I'd have quoted and agreed with him.

How should the structure change to prevent this? What levels are worth adding or when should the time per blind increase?

Grow the brainless gamble on PS, yes, for sure.
I don't play NLO8s anymore since hyper-rake got upped (...), but I can clearly picture what a travesty of poker even reg-Speed NLO8 PKOs are nowadays, considering that equities run so close preflop, and it being a splitpot-game.
No self-respecting poker-player should have a single good word about PKOs in any Omaha or Mixed variant, imo.

If anybody else would buy PS now, and just use the 2013 schedule, I'm sure that it'd be win-win-win for everyone in the long run (PS-regs-recs)

PS:
raidalot might be our last hope. Would surely find other investors to join, when Amaya ruined it in a few months/years...ONE TIME!

PPS:
Forgot that they offer Casino and Sports, and grow there... all of that is banned in my state...