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Do you stack off with Kings here? Do you stack off with Kings here?

06-18-2017 , 03:30 PM
Villain is 19/7/38 Aggression with a 9% PF 3 Bet.

Hand:
No Limit Hold'em Tournament T80/T160
8 players

Stacks:
UTG - Hero (T9,951)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (T10,488)
MP - MP (T18,239)
MP2 - MP2 (T9,984)
CO - CO (T10,333)
BTN - BTN (T8,264)
SB - SB (T19,031)
BB - BB (T20,497)

Preflop: (T368, 8 players) Hero is UTG with K K
Hero raises to T320, UTG+1 raises to T640, 5 folds, BB calls T480, Hero raises to T2,500, UTG+1 calls T1,860, 1 fold

Flop: J T 4 (T5,848, 2 players)
Hero bets T4,386, UTG+1 raises to T7,972 (all-in), Hero ???

Would you call? Would you bet flop like I did?

My thinking was as follows. Villain didn't 5 bet shove so I don't think Aces are as likely (though Jacks and Tens certainly hit that flop hard). I was thinking mostly about equity denial for AK or other aces and maybe getting value from queens.

Once he shoves over us, we are getting a good price to stack off.

Lets run the actual numbers:

Vs a 4 bet flat range of QQ+ & AK - KK has 58% equity on that flop. If we add in JJ and TT into their range, our equity is still 47%+.

When he shoves we need to call 3049 into 13603 or 4.46:1 - so we need to have 18% equity to make the call +cEV - the only thing a call is negative EV with would be exactly if he has AA and thats ALL we put him on - if we even just add either QQ or AKs (let alone a shoving range of AA, KK, QQ, and AKs) we have enough equity to call.

Anyway - wanted to see how other people think about this spot. Maybe I stack off too lightly with marginal hands.

Spoiler:

I'm a huge donk.

Hero calls T3,049 (all-in), Uncalled bet of T537 returned to UTG+1

Turn: K (T20,718, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: 9 (T20,718, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Total Pot: T20,718
Hero shows K K (with Three Of Kind of Ks)
UTG+1 shows A A (with One pair of As)

Hero wins T20,718 with Three Of Kind of Ks
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-18-2017 , 04:40 PM
Villain being UTG+1 and flat calling your UTG 4x 4-bet ip looks more to me like AA than if he were to 5 bet shove.
With that being said, I'm not sure I would have been able to get rid of KK here. People stack off with such weird hands, but for 60+bb's... who knows, maybe I could have gotten away from it???
Pf, I think I'd 4 bet smaller, your raise looks so strong that any hand that's not AA, KK, QQ, JJ will most likely fold. Also, it will help keep pot a little smaller if board is/runs bad.
I'd also bet flop much smaller (maybe quarter/third pot) and jam any turn.
Your c bet screams "LETS GII NOW!!"
Not mad atcha for stacking off w kk.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-18-2017 , 04:43 PM
Good comment on sizing - I could have sized smaller on both counts.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-18-2017 , 06:11 PM
I would have 4 bet to around 1850, but it's getting allin on the flop every single time.

My rough math looks like your pot odds were even better than you indicate. 5k in pot preflop..... your flop bet 4400.... his shove 7400.... So about 3k to win almost 17k

Literally folding zero times here.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-18-2017 , 08:25 PM
with that flop bet size u gotta call

and yeah, i think i go broke here as well on a small stake mtt as people mentioned earlier there are so much weird stuff that goes on that i cant see myself folding here
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-18-2017 , 09:32 PM
yes it is likely I would
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-19-2017 , 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutflopper
I would have 4 bet to around 1850, but it's getting allin on the flop every single time.

My rough math looks like your pot odds were even better than you indicate. 5k in pot preflop..... your flop bet 4400.... his shove 7400.... So about 3k to win almost 17k

Literally folding zero times here.
This. Once you bet big on the flop you can't fold for sure.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-19-2017 , 07:17 PM
OP you are also leaving out some of villains bluffs here such as AKcc, AQcc, 89, Q9, and flush draws. This is a must call even if you are getting much worse odds.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-19-2017 , 11:45 PM
i guess with the bb coming along you should definitely be 4betting. i dont mind the sizing but you could always make it smaller like 2 or 2.2k. HYPOTHETICAL; If villain 5 bets what do you do? i guess fold right...

as played. i would cbet way smaller, like 2k to 2.7k. if he CRAI's flop, what do we do? i'd probably assume we're beat but call anyway and pray he has QQ or AKcc, AQcc.

It's a crappy spot. nice job getting there
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-20-2017 , 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaja Bink
i guess with the bb coming along you should definitely be 4betting. i dont mind the sizing but you could always make it smaller like 2 or 2.2k. HYPOTHETICAL; If villain 5 bets what do you do? i guess fold right...

as played. i would cbet way smaller, like 2k to 2.7k. if he CRAI's flop, what do we do? i'd probably assume we're beat but call anyway and pray he has QQ or AKcc, AQcc.

It's a crappy spot. nice job getting there
He could still be 5 betting JJ+ and AQ+, very exploitable to just 5 bet aces here.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote
06-20-2017 , 11:23 AM
I think if you're 4betting pre, and leading 100% of the time on non A-high boards you can't fold. Against TT+ you have reasonable equity and it's better to take the risk for a huge chipup than fold your equity/risk any minimal chance of being exploited. I think you're only ahead of specifically QQ, but better to get it in than be stuck with 16bbs at this early stage.
Do you stack off with Kings here? Quote

      
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