Just catching up to the thread, I've probably been personally affected more than almost anyone else by this type of ****(Lost HEAPS ethically staking, been THAY3R on the 2 major sites for 10 years, etc.)

**** you guys I hate you











Yeah it's crazy how accepted it seems to be, I don't see how you could be a self respecting poker professional and rely on others in critical spots? I guess it's more just trying to make that $ and people don't even consider the morality/humility of it all.


Yeah I don't get it. To be a God loving/People loving person and to view yourself as a loving moral person and then you do this type of ****?? It's such hypocritical crap, though not really considering the history of Christianity and religion.

Systematic backing is a big problem, people are sharing databases! People have 8x hands more on you than you could even possibly have on them! You don't even know what they know about you! And then to top it all off you have the SuperStar backer who can handle all the spots for his guys in the highest leveraged situations



Definitely. The worst part about Ghosting/US Accounts is the anonymity. I'm THAY3R, Thayer Rasmussen. Most people know who I am and some have a decade worth of info on me and you're just sprouting up with a new name and I have no idea who the **** you are.

Fun anecdote: Won a pot where I got lucky and this guy TOOLS out on me calling me a terrible nit and all that stuff. I OPR him and....lol? He's been playing on Stars for like a month. FWIW I reported it to Stars and he never appeared on Stars again. Well, that screen name didn't

Names have been named, people feel weird about being super explicit about it(though ITT certain people have been called out) when not positive but still obvious it's going on.

And the people who have met with Stars, GOGGLES? Gags? Curious if Stars brings it up at all

Since I heard about it recently I have brought it up a few times, I know Chuck Bass wants to bring it up at the meeting and he seems to know a lot more than I do, and I haven't had a chance to really talk to him so going to wait until that is over and see what happens. As far as the account I mentioned earlier I reported it and unfortunately there wasn't conclusive evidence, if people know anything or have a suspicion I still think the best course of action is to mail support like Thayer did.

chuckbass and omgclaydol are meeting with stars next. im sure theyre following this thread, but we need to ask them to escalate these MA'ing issues with stars

as far as MAing goes: fish in HSMTTs generally are people who sat in or have played for a while and maybe binked for taking a shot.... so accounts that get created and have 10k+ xfered to it or deposit 5k+ and immediately start grinding a normal hsmtt schedule should be pretty easy to flag.. maybe require more identification/info etc, as well as keeping an eye on maybe who they xfer w

as far as ghosting i just wrote some long paragraph about finger scanning/methods like that but then realized people can just skype and tell someone their cards so yea the best way is probably naming names and linking backers/horses

Any kind of webcam/finger scanning stuff is useless because the scum will always find a way around it and it will discourage people from playing/starting to play poker.

Same with making the unenforceable rules about MA'n and Ghosting, it can be done innocently amongst amateurs and that's fine, it's the structured stealing of equity from others that's the terrible part.

Helpful post, keep it up.

he checked last 2years wcoop me winners, failed to find any recognisable names and came to sad conclusion I'D GUESS.

sad but prolly true though

this case you should just be more specific.

In Maratik case I can agree he could got unfair advantage, but I think PS wont allow to touch him. And probably we shouldn't do it either cus its bad for business.

Great stones they lay upon his chest until he plead aye or nay. They say he give them but two words. "More weight," he says. And died.

Yeah I just got back online from a 10 day trip and I will definitely be bringing this up in the Stars player meeting. It's one of the main reasons I could be arsed to even run for the election. I'm super tired and sick right now but if you want you can read a bit about what I have to say here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...83&postcount=5 it's the paragraph starting "why I'm not a PokerStars fanboy".

As mement pointed out I know quite a bit about this, I was not the one who did most of the investigative work regarding the Romanian accounts scheme but I know quite a bit about it and was the first person to bring it up (it's in some mttc thread from 1+ years ago, can't remember which one atm) and I have access to the list of names / accounts.

I'm also aware of another ring / vpn service that is currently in operation, they are based in BC Canada (their VPN is), and it's a guy who won a big WSOP event last year who's running it, I don't know how many horses he has but I hope they will get caught through money transfers etc. He is basically running a large stable with new accounts and reliable VPN aka he's staking to ghost / ma etc and offering US regs a chance to play from the States as long as they play for him. Stars has shown zero interest in this so far.

There's a ton of other stuff too I'm aware of and have witnessed first hand, for example remote controling (I've witnessed a guy deep in majors playing from the States with the computer being in Mexico / Canada, pretty funny to see a guy get a 40k score not even sitting on the computer himself). I know of people who have multiple accounts on FTP and they have their permission for it. This probably happens on Stars too.

I have been thinking about outing people for quite a long time, but Stars showed zero interest when I told them about it and I just kinda gave up. Then other people did the detective work and apparently got some accounts banned. The money Stars has kept themselves to my knowledge even that this is at least prob like 500k they have won from other players and thus it should be distributed back into the community imo.

Anyway, the reason why I haven't directly outed people so far is that I have mixed feelings about it. I'd snap out anyone who I knew to be multiaccounting or playing under a new account, but for example I know of cases where people are playing with their known, old sn through VPNs / remote controling and they CAN'T leave the States for various reasons. They are not being lazy ****s who can't be arsed to relocate, they had their job taken away by joke us goverment and can't do anything about it, it's often a choice between leave family or do remote controling, etc. I do not want to be the guy ****ing these people's lives up, and I know this will piss some people off and they think that these people should be snap outed because it's eating their profits directly, but guess what **** I should not be in this situation anyway?! How about the joke that calls itself POKERSTARS SECURITY does their work for once so that no one has to snitch anyone (often friends)??

And I know of at least ~20 people who know about the same things that I do, and they have also elected to do nothing, so it's not like I'm the only one not spilling all the beans. I have not yet decided what I'm going to say in the Stars meeting about the accounts involved, but anyway key point should be to get Stars to tighten their security and handle the problems themselves (so it wouldn't happen more etc) not outing these precise people. I will definitely out the people I know who are running services, like the guy in BC who gives a lappy with brand new Stars account and stakes them with his VPN service, but I don't think I will out single people or accounts.

I don't know if any of the above made sense, I have fever, I have my lungs full of tear gas after an incident in Kyrgyzstan last night, I've just travelled like 15 hours and haven't slept in 40 hours+ so I'm going to pass out.

Anyway I'll be partaking in this conversation as much as I can, if anyone has any extra info about anything mentioned in this thread please do pm me, if you want to share precise names or account names and don't want me to spill the beans on them you can 100% trust me to not share them with anyone including Stars. Like I said they key point here IMO should be to make sure this doesn't happen in the future and reduce the amount of **** going on right now, not witch hunt certain people. We got 3 weeks to come up with what we want to say as a community, this post and the one I linked is my personal opinion which I probably will be forcing through quite a bit but I'd really like to hear input from the posters here (especially as most of them are both smarter and have been around for longer than me).


Also I have a lot to say about how Stars handles their security leaks (just brushing everything under the carpet), you can read my key points about it in the above paragraph. And just in case some dolt got this wrong, I personally have never VPNd, multiaccounted, or done anything similar. I only know about all this stuff basically because I've been traveling so much and living in different poker communities, playing live tourneys with so many 2+2ers over the last 5 years, in other words networking. I haven't even really actively sought for any information, it's just that this stuff happens a LOT, like 10000x more than people realize, and even if a random ****ty midstakes reg from Finland can hear about this with people bringing it up when he's procrastinating on the computer jerking off to college porn, how much do you think the people who are REALLY connected know? I bet something like 10% of HS regs have broken stars T&C in the past couple of years.


edit: also, I'm not trying to make it look like I'm some saint / poker world police, I really don't even care anywhere near as much as many of the posters in this thread, but I will be doing my absolute best to get something out of the meetings.

double edit: Mickey, we should try to schedule a skype chat in the near future. Also kleath, I'm not sure how much of that long post of yours was serious and I know you're not exactly a Chuck Basss fanboy, but please feel free to pm me any information you have. And same goes for everyone else. I know I'm a pretty controversial poster and often post the most idiotic **** here ("rather be a losing lag...") but I have everyone's interests in mind and will be doing my absolute best with the meetings here.

Good p

subbed

I think a thread where people can voice their suspicions of VPN'ing and MA'ing is dangerous for obvious reasons, and it would be a moderating nightmare.

However, a thread specifically for statistical in-frequencies with specific accounts (like Mickey provided) would be a good step in the right direction. If someone suspected an account of something, you could post the stats only; it would not be a thread where you could say "I heard so and so was VPNing"...Only SS and OPR data to show that a specific account could be an account in question.

It would need to be moderated strictly.

We have all seen and know people who are doing these things and it's unfortunate because not only are people who are following the rules being cheated, but people are actually quitting the game because of all this stuff is getting so out of hand.

"
Anyway, the reason why I haven't directly outed people so far is that I have mixed feelings about it. I'd snap out anyone who I knew to be multiaccounting or playing under a new account, but for example I know of cases where people are playing with their known, old sn through VPNs / remote controling and they CAN'T leave the States for various reasons. They are not being lazy ****s who can't be arsed to relocate, they had their job taken away by joke us goverment and can't do anything about it, it's often a choice between leave family or do remote controling, etc. I do not want to be the guy ****ing these people's lives up, and I know this will piss some people off and they think that these people should be snap outed because it's eating their profits directly, but guess what **** I should not be in this situation anyway?! How about the joke that calls itself POKERSTARS SECURITY does their work for once so that no one has to snitch anyone (often friends)??
"
chuck bass quote

this. I know people who do that, but it's like is it such a crime? who really cares? as long as they play on their own name i'm not going to rat them out. It's a bs law and a bs situation and all of us have been effect drastically financially. If ghosting is perfectly legal, how it is more of a crime to play from a computer hooked up in another country than it is to help some random explicitly cheat his opponents? I could care less if americans are playing on teamviewer on their own names, good for them. The focus of thread should be on the people playing for their horses and girlfriends and random donk friends deep in big mtt's.

"I know this incredible story, I can't wait to tell you! You will NEVER believe me when I tell you what person xyz did the other day, it's hilarious! Oh wait a minute, I promised him/her not to tell anyone, tough **** man! You would've loved what I was about to tell you!"



And what's the difference between suspicions and "statistical in-frequencies"?
Even though I do understand your point it will be very hard to differentiate between (possibly spiteful) suspicions and events based on "evidence" observed by one single person.


This thread will either disappear within the next week or lead to some drastic changes; it all depends on whether people will finally start to come out with their stories or keep making up excuses for why it's actually not that bad or why certain people should not be callled out.
We need one of the MTTc mods to step up and accept PMs from people who have something meaningful to say with regards to this topic, put in a little work to determine whether to proof the allegations right or not.
This thread has shown that there has been/is an absurd of cheating and violating any sites' TOS going on and people need to finally accept that and work on counter measures.


This thread has been a joke so far but there's a lot every single person on this forum can do to make this less of an issue!

A few ppl have PM'd to ask about why I dislike Noctus, and it has nothing to do with the revelations in this thread. The revelations in this this thread--and hearing that he was banned from Stars for colluding SnGs--just confirm what I had thought all along, that he is a huge dickhead.

Quick backstory:

We were in a hotel room in San Remo for an EPT, and he and some other guy were there to do a trade with a mutual friend, or something like that.

When I asked who he was on Stars and he said, Noctus, I pretty much insta-reacted, "oh you're a douche" then qualified that by explaining that I thought it was douchey to berate players in chat.

There was a moment of awkward/quiet tension, but then he spoke up and defended his practice of berating fish by saying it's fine since it gives him an edge.

And that was pretty much it for years. I thought having manned up and told him how it was face-to-face that he would stop being such a dick online, but in any case I hear stories years later about how he goes out of his way to talk smack about me and say, I'm the only player in poker he hates, etc.

Simply the worst.

rip uptoinfinite

Fwiw I've received quite a few pms in the past few hours from reputable posters giving more information about several of the cases mentioned itt and also some entirely new information. I do believe all of the information is very legit, which in turn leads me to believe that 1) the kinds of shadyness mentioned itt is happening a LOT more than anyone could imagine, and 2) I'm about to have one huge database of MAing/VPNing/cheating etc on me.

Since the meetings are pretty close and I'll be attending and will be pushing everything mentioned itt a lot, I'd like people to keep sending me any information they have. But also, I'd like input from smart ppl about what the best approach is for using this information. Currently I have a TON of stuff, for example names and Stars sns of people running backing/VPN operations, but also new Stars handles of training site coaches and mtt all-time legends who had no troubles playing under new accounts and clearing hundreds of thousands during WCOOP. I'm still pretty sick and not thinking 100% clearly, but at least right now it seems clear to me that anyone and everything running operations (shady backers, VPN service guys type of ppl) should be 100% outed and every piece of information should be released to Stars, but I still don't really know what do with the information of individual people. And still I feel kind of ****ty about even being involved because like I said I'd absolutely hate ****ing people's lives up and I don't want to be known as the guy who's the snitch who just ratted out 200 accounts. BUT at the same time I want to do what's best, and that's why I'd like some 2+2 input and maybe talk in private to a guy like mement who has been around for longer than me, possibly gets the big picture better, has Stars connections and his head in the right place.

Like, I have both the information of a guy whose sn everyone would recognize, who created an entirely new SN and then raped ppl "anonymously" out of 100s of ks, and then I have the information of a midstakes grinder from some hillybilly state who has wife and kids and plays through remote controling from home because he can't leave wifey and kids behind, etc. This is why I think it's a ****ty situtation, am I supposed to out everyone and everything, or am I supposed to try to have common sense and only out the ones who I think are more "guilty", and how am I ever going to be qualified to make these decisions? Obviously the GRAND leak here is Stars security being an absolute joke, and naturally I will be asking them some pretty serious questions about how this can be happening in 2013 and how they are going to prevent it in the future, but atm I feel slightly uncomfortable about what to be done with the information of the people / sns who've already committed these "crimes" to various degrees.

Having that said please keep the information coming, and if you personally think that I'm not a trustworthy/ serious poster enough to be given the information you have, I can get someone more reputable involved. If you end PMing me please make sure if any of the stuff is something you do *not* wish to be publicized to Stars or publically if that ends up happening. I have a journalist background and definitely do respect sources; so if you have something you think would help us understand the big picture better BUT wish to be left out of any official conversations just let me know.

The only people mad at you would be the ones doing it and I guess you could give a **** about those shady people.

Just confirming I have read the thread and will read future posts as well. Seems like this is going to be a big discussion at the meetings.. Will be kind of difficult just simply because it's pretty hard to enforce and prove a lot of things, for example if two friends are room mates or neighbours, and one is giving advice during a deep run there is difficulty that you can prove that pretty much.

Also a major issue is drawing the line between what is acceptable. Person B telling person A what to do, like check-raise or 3-bet or open etc (on person A's account) is probably clearly unethical to everyone, since it's basically the same as them actually playing, but person B telling person A that someone who just opened is an active opener in that spot is less clear for example I would guess. What if a recreational players brother who is also recreational says you shouldn't risk it, fold this this all-in etc?

Any thoughts on the above are appreciated. I think at the moment one rule Stars has it that helping a bit or giving advice is only explicitly not allowed if the helper has a financial interest which I think is probably a rule that is waiting to be angled.

There is a clear distinction between people playing on their own sn's from murica, having re-registered an address in mexico or wherever, and those people who have created new accounts in other names to play anonymously in order to gain an edge over other regulars. Or are taking over other accounts when they are deep by remote control. I dont think it should be that hard to distinguish between who is doing something shady to gain an advantage and who is just breaking T and C's by using a VPN because they unwisely decided to knock someone up while playing online MTT's as a career.

While stars would ultimately like all the info I dont think you have to give over everything to make outing scumbags possible.

Also fwiw I am certainly no Stars fanboy, but I dont think you should really attack stars security for being shi_t when you/or anyone ITT dont really know the technical realities of detecting people controlling accounts with remote software. I imagine it is not an easy thing to police effectively. I would ask them about what their current practices are and what they are planning to do in the future. If their answers are non-commital brush offs by all means give them some grief.

Someone mentioned games companies like blizzard have a monitoring capability within a games client that they can use to detect what other programs are running on the machine when the softwares open. I think stars may also do this in some way, but maybe ask why this isnt always on looking for remote software. I imagine it will still be easily circumvented if you are determined and computer savvy but could still cut out a lot of abusers if stars locked whenever it detected any banned software and you had to call them to unlock/explain.

Sounds like you are gonna be a real pain in the ass to them which is great because I really feel the other people who have gone have in some way been in it for good exposure with stars/their own rep, rather than to really get to the nitty gritty of it all.

Edit: omgclaydol, trying to enforce a ban on people in the same physical location helping each other, or over skype chat, would be impossible and futile to waste time on I reckon. It would be much better to focus on stuff that you may be able to prevent, like catching the remote controllers and other MA'ing stuff.

Sorry to ruin your dreams about Pokerstars ever going to do anything about multiaccounting.

A few years ago Ive had a situation where I proved the guy I played against in a HU tourney worth of a 15k package was multiacounting and PS never did anything against it and the guy even keep playing on stars on multiple acounts after that withtout a problem.

Ive never even had a PS representative to say they were sorry for it.
In fact, was easier to make the Portuguese government to recognize it and to sue the guy than to make PS recognize it, even having the CONFESSION of the multiaccounter /ghost at the time.


(had to create a new acc becuz cant acess/recover my old one)

kizk_, both my past experiences with them and my expectations are similar to yours. If I'm being honest I'm not expecting much to come out of this either because I'm really not expecting Stars to be very helpful / willing to discuss this much at all. But **** it, I'm at least going to give it my best shot since I actually am going.