Villain unknown & I don't have a clue!

UltimateBet $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $24.73
Hero (SB): $27.22
BB: $25.00
UTG: $22.48
MP: $10.61
CO: $24.46

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with A T
UTG calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.25) 8 T Q (2 players)
Hero bets $2.25, UTG calls $2.25

Turn: ($6.75) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3.50, Hero folds

Gib, I keep getting conflicting info about what to do PF with AT-AQ OOP. I think HU this is an easy raise.

The turn donk i guess you have to fold. Your getting around 3:1 on your call with no redraws. I would imagine he has some kind of straight/flush draw along with a Q or T.

I'm interested to find out what other posters have to say. I'm pretty sure it can't be optimal to fold to every turn donk like this when you have 2nd pair/TP and the board is this drawy.

Gib...I'm not sure about pf, especially w/o a read. Most likely you have an equity edge, but I've run into a lot of 14/0 players lately, and you're oop. That being said, if I've decided to raise, I'm gonna raise a bit more, like 5x. Now, I don't know that it's necessarily correct, but I've been checking a lot of flops oop, both when I miss and when I hit or have an overpair. I would check here and see.

If I raise, I raise a little more PF

I prolly bet the turn instead of check, I think you are ahead of a lot of his range, and I think hed raise the flop with his monsters on a board like this, so im not as scared of getting raised, and if I check I can't fold to a bet, given we are ahead a lot here, so I might as well bet myself

eh.. ididn't noticed Gib checked the turn...I think a call here is ok, as we are likely ahead of his draws. The are a lot of river cards that are going to put you in a pretty tough spot though.

Agree with raise more preflop, make it 1.25-1.5 to discourage him calling.

On the flop I bet less, if he's going to peel with a draw he'll pay 2.25 just as often as he pay 1.75 so I'd make it about 1.75. We don't really want to make this pot any bigger than is has to be.

It's hard to put him on a better hand so I think I like betting the turn to get value from all the pair+draw hands you beat. As played I call his 1/2 pot bet all day. Vs agro opponents I like checking the turn and letting them bet 100% of their range, which they would fold most of to a turn bet. Without that read I think betting is better.

On the river I check unimproved and decide whether to call a bet depending on it's size and what card comes.

Do you alway raise this pf. I alway complete here to keep the pot small when i'm OOP. Am i missing out on alot of value by doing this?

I would raise of fold since you are oop and will have to hit a flop to win if you just call. UTG limp is so often a pp that will fold to a flop bet and a load of the time you'll take it down right there. It depends lots on the UTG limper though.

6m raise pf is fine

i'd bet turn again maybe 5.3 and fold to a raise or shove and if he calls i'd be really careful on the river

Villian limped under the gun so I'm going to assume that he's weak. With the line that you took I advocate a turn check raise. He's bet half the pot on the turn, which seems weak to me. I dump it in here. But then, I've been described as a complete nutter.

c/c turn is so much better than c/r. The only worse hand that might call is KJcc, everything else folds. Why not let him bet again on the river with the hands you beat if you think you are ahead? CR the turn just turns your hand into a bluff.

agreed

I know. That's what it essentialy is. c/cing sucks because we are out of position and can't dictate the pot size effectively on the river. I don't know if we are ahead that often here. I like forcing him off the hand.

lol

I like bet/fold on the turn here.

If you c/r and he calls, what do you do on the river? If you raise, to how much? $10? We're putting in half our stack with a hand we're planning on folding if villain decides to stick with us. If you raise and he calls, and you check and he bets the river and puts you all in, will you call? You need to have a plan for the all-in possibility with the c/r I think, and I don't like it with 2nd pair.

If you c/c, what do you do on the river? C/c again? WA/WB, basically? What size bet would you call on the river... 1/4 pot, perhaps? Meh... that puts us in a bad spot. And we're still putting in about half our stack (if we call the river bet) because maybe we're ahead.

Bet/fold gives us the best feel for pushing out hands weaker than ours, and not giving weaker hands the initiative. And we don't have to put in half our stack to do it. A bet of $5 leaves enough behind that makes him have to be wary of a river bet, too.

I advocate check-raising the turn all in. That eliminates any possible problems on the river.

yes but it eliminates him calling us with any worse hands really and most of us advocate getting our money in good whenever possible

adam I don't like your logic on this one. If the only reason to check/shove is because we can't play the river well otherwise, then our natural turn move should instead be to check/fold.

put another way, if you can't check/call here and then play the river profitably UI, then you can't even check/call here - so why shove? a push there is a frustrated and tilty play.

further, you've only got slightly more than a PSB there, so you're not folding out good Queens or better. This means that the range of hands you fold out there is heavily skewed towards flush and straight draws that you can usually sidestep easily on the river (and that you're ahead of now). Pushing out a draw that you're currently beating is NOT the way to play this. Rather, you should be looking for blank rivers and checking to induce bluffs, while getting out of the way on scary cards - and that's only if you have a legit reason to believe you're up against a draw here.

I personally check/fold this turn unless i've got a read that I'm up against an aggro player that bets draws and bluffs whiffs. Even then I don't commit my stack here.

Rene,

I've been thinking about this hand a bit. Here are my thoughts.

Firstly lets take it from preflop. I don't like ATo. Usually the only time I'll play this is on a late position steal or a free play from the big blind. It's a crap hand. Secondly, I don't like the small blind. It's the worst position on the table and I look for any excuse to not play a hand from the position. Thirdly, we don't have any reads on villian apart from the fact that he limps UTG. That usually indicates a crap player, but he could be limping a big hand here that he doesn't want to fold everyone out to with an UTG raise. What that means is that we have a very hard time defining his hand range.

With all that in mind I just fold this preflop. It doesn't interest me. And I want to see what the UTG player is open limping so hopefully he and the big blind can have a showdown.

But we've played it, and we've opened with a crappy sized raise. Now we're out of position, we have a co-ordinated board and we have no idea of our opponents hand range. If you bet this flop, what is your plan if you get called? There aren't too many turn cards that you want to see. Our situation is piss poor. So I check the flop. I want to keep this pot very small. I will call a little bet. Little bets usually mean little hands. I will call little bets all the way to the river becasue I want to see what he's playing here. If at any stage there is a big bet, then I'm gone. That's my plan for this god awful hand.

BUT,

Finding ourselves in the position on the turn, I shove it. Here's why:

1. We could well fold out a better hand. Are you going to call this shove on this board with top pair?
2. I don't agree that playing the river will be as straight forward as you believe. There are a lot of cards that will be scary on the river. Even an Ace will be scary as one of them completes the flush and all of them give KJ a wet dream. How are you going to know which draw he was on when a scary card comes and he bets the river?
3. We do have a hand ourselves, albiet a weak one. If we manage to get a draw to call a turn push then we've got it in while we're ahead.
4. I tend to stay at the one table for as long as I can, so an early shove like this with a bluff often gets me paid off on future turn check raise shoves when I'm holding a monster.
5. I love shoving. It gives me the horn.

still don't like it adam.

1. that is not a scary turn card for top pair, and you're laying 2:1, so don't be surprised if you getting looked up by Qx there

2. i didnt say the river would be straight forward. I said i would only call the turn if I thought it could be. In this spot it wouldnt without any read, hence the advocation of check/fold turn.

3. we don't have a hand if we get a shove called. we're behind at least 90%

4. table selection is good for the soul. shoving for image is bad for the roll.

5. hey, me too. I just want a nice situation for it.

Rene,

Just read this line from Tommy's book;

"No matter how bad your cards are, you can always fluc yourself by bluffing."

I concede.

Define 'fluc'

A play on words with 'fluctuation', as in there are a lot of fluctuations in poker but mainly we just fluctuate ourselves. We fluc ourselves as it were.

tommy's book is great. I'd encourage emailing him with comments and criticisms after you finish it. He was very appreciative of the comments that I sent.