So I've been dabbling in low stakes 6-max NL. I'm not sure if this hand is that interesting but here goes:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($110.35)
MP ($94.90)
Hero ($98.55)
SB ($106)
BB ($84.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A.
UTG raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, UTG raises to $32.5, Hero calls $17.

Flop: ($63) A, 9, 7 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $69.55 (All-In), UTG calls $69.55.

Turn: ($0) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($0) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $202.10

My thinking preflop is that I have a great hand and have alot of hands dominated. I'm not sure if I should have called the re-raise or whether there is any merit to floating preflop with position. I don't have a read on the villain.

As for my flop push I figure I could look like I'm trying to run someone off a hand and thought that a shove would not look like top pair top kicker. All thoughts appreciated.

YT

First thought is: you have to know if this player is capable of 3-betting you without a premium hand (QQ-AA). Without a read, and assuming he's not getting extra aggro, your only hope is that he has another AKo/AKs, which means you're pretty much NEVER ahead here. As played, you put 32.5BB in the pot (1/3 of your stack) with a big drawing hand. Since he called your flop-shove, he has to have AA, AK, or 99 (which would be a little surprising, honestly, but not impossible).

I think you have to decide before the flop how you want to play this hand: either shove now (it's rare you won't get called at this level) or a fold-preflop, which honestly may be the best play (again, assuming the raiser is straightforward). Note with the fold, you're only down 12BB here.

Without knowing the tendencies of the players at the table, only so much analysis can be done, but I believe what I've described is reasonably standard for 100NL 6max.

Anybody shove all-in preflop here? I would.

Against anyone aggressive, sure, but there are plenty of players(read:fish and nits) who you can fold to the 4bet against at this limit. 3bet/folding AKs is a bad plan at 3/6+ generally speaking, because the games are more aggro.

YT,

preflop is kind of meh... with AK you really want to either be getting it all in, or only putting in like 15% of your stack.

This is just about the worst stack-size since there's enough money left to bet that you might lose KK/QQ/JJ on a Axx flop, and you can't really call an allin on the flop when you miss, which leaves you folding the flop like 60-something percent of the time if he decides to cbet.

This also turns a coinflip (45/55) vs QQ or JJ into a reverse implied odds situation, where he may get away when you hit and he takes 1/3 of your stack without letting you see the turn + river when you miss.

As played flop shove is fine, but checking and shoving turn when checked to is fine too, makes your hand look more bluff-esque.

Surf

He definitely will be.

This is 100% not true, because not only will AQ look you up, so will KK a lot of the time.

Or a host of other hands, in fact, depending on the player.

Anyway, who cares what he has after he calls?


Do not do this. You will be crushed in six-max games if you give up AKs to a small reraise.



If you ever fold this hand, getting 3 to 1, I will personally hunt you down and skin you.

The only question is whether you flat call and hope to hit your ace, or push right now and ensure all five cards.

Why am I assuming that?

And straightforward != insanely tight.

Even my granny doesn't fold here.

I think most NL players will push in this spot. Folding is pretty ridiculous, and calling is a bit meh.

As played, the shove is fine. I bet he showed you AJ and rivered you.

We would be happy if they did that! I can't imagine our EV is more than the pot after his reraise.

We'd be fourbetting.

I think that's a bit arbitrary. Why 15%?

We are getting about 3 to 1 though. And some of the time we stack him on ace or king high flops.

You've made a strong argument for pushing, right there. You get to see all five cards, so no missing the flop. And he doesn't get away when you hit.

The only question is whether you're ahead of his threebetting range. It's sixmax though. You get threebet pretty wide.

I think you are getting called *marginally* more often when you shove on the flop.

I should have said "4-betting you with a premium" here.
Though really I'm asking whether he will 4-bet PF with AQo. Entirely possible he will, though we currently have no stats on this player, we have no true sense of his range. I'm simply saying we're not often ahead here without knowing more.
I was only surmising what was likely based on the post. It wasn't part of a how-he-played-the-hand analysis.
You're totally right on this one, that was something I said that was very wrong, don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. Raise >>>>> Call >>> Fold.
Fair enough.
This is an assumption, not a statement of fact.
Why would your granny necessarily play tight?
Agreed re: flop shove, there's really no other play at that stage... We pretty much beat KK, QQ, JJ, AQ, and I don't necessarily expect a call from the 3 pocket-pairs.

Well, lets see...

I don't know what you mean, you may have misunderstood what I said.

I'm saying that given villain's raise, our reraise is fine, but when we get re-reraised there are plenty of players (50/5s and 14/8s come to mind) that are literally ONLY 4betting us with AA/KK so we can fold. Against someone like a 40/20 or whatever shoving is obv better.


Villain raises. We 3bet. He 4bets us, we either fold or 5bet. The numbers are 1 higher than the number of raises, this is an artifact from limit hold'em, where the first reraise is 3 stacks of 1sb each, hence "3-bets."

I'm saying that 3betting, then folding to another raise, is generally a bad plan in most aggressive games. The caveat above is that we can get away with folding when our opponents are so predictable that they only have the nuts when they come over the top of our raise, which is not uncommon at this limit.

It's not arbitrary, i'll try to explain a bit...

What happens when we get 30% of our stack in PF with AK? we are left with a bit more than a PSB. We can assume that many opponents will be betting that money all-in on raggy flops. On a 972r flop we have 23% equity(and way worse vs KK/AA!) versus pocket pairs JJ-QQ, and we will be getting worse than 3:1 on our money, so calling is a mistake.

Sometimes we are folding and yielding the pot to AK, when we would have split if we shoved pre. Sometimes we are giving 30% of our stack to QQ-JJ without seeing the turn and river, a costly move since we only hit the flop ~32%.

Additionally, the bet is just big enough that JJ-QQ may fold a Kxx or Axx flop. What do they beat? Anyone with an ounce of hand-reading can tell that they are crushed by AK and all bigger PPs.

What happens if we get 15% in pre? Now we have almost 3x the size of the pot left in betting.
We don't mind folding if we miss since the pot is smaller and our equity is still poor.

Our range will be wider, since 15% is likely just a raise and a 3bet, so our opponent has to wonder if we are squeezing as a bluff or have a non-premium hand, which is not the case when we flat-call a 4bet(once we call we can't be bluffing).

There's enough money left behind that we can count on a bit of implied odds. Will QQ/JJ stack off on a Kxx or Axx? Unlikely. However, because they have to worry about our wider range(read: getting bluffed), we may get a "i don't believe you" call on the flop or turn depending on how we play our hand. This is not a significant factor in a 4bet pot, unless someone is tilting.

Also, by keeping our range wider (just a raise and our 3bet) our opponent's range is wider too...stuff like AQ, KQ, and AJ start to show up to stack off when we both hit, giving us some nice implied odds.

Getting 30% of stacks in requires either a huge 3bet, or a 3bet and a 4bet, both of which tighten *most* opponents' ranges to QQ+, AK, maybe JJ.

say $100 stacks. We each put $30 in pre. Flop the pot is $60, we each have $70 remaining. Dude goes allin for $70 more, there is $130 in the pot and we have to call $70, which is $70/$200 = 35% equity necessary to call.

We have 23% equity against QQ-JJ alone.
We have 18% equity against QQ-AA.
We have 28% equity against QQ-AA, AK.

None of these ranges give us odds to call the flop. All we've done is put the most money possible in preflop that does NOT give us odds to call the flop.

We may stack him on an Axx or Kxx flop if he's particularly stubborn or bad at hand-reading. We are guaranteed to stack him on Axx or Kxx flops (or turns, or rivers!) if we get the $ in preflop, though.


Exactly. However, he isn't 3betting, he's 4betting, his range is much tighter.

If we have high enough equity against his range, we shove. If not, we fold. Stack size dictates no other action. I'd say against your average player in this game folding is correct.

In a 5/10 game, you would have to pry the AK from my cold, dead hands since the game is so much more aggressive.

We've put 12bbs in, and there are 88 left to bet, villain has put in 30. so there are 42bbs in the pot, we need to put 88 in to win 130 + 70 call, or 88/200 = ~44% equity, assuming we are always called. rarely he folds, and we win 42bbs, so this figure is actually lower.

Some equity calcs:

AK vs...
KK-AA, AK: 37%
QQ-AA, AK: 38%
JJ-AA, AK: 40%
JJ-AA, AQ,AK: 50%

As you can see, villain either needs to be folding a fair amount, or getting involved with sub-premium hands to make this worthwhile.

That's a matter of opinion, i suppose. IMO shoving flop would get more calls if we were the preflop aggressor, since then our range could consist of bluffs. Otherwise I think checking the flop represents an underpair, and betting the turn when checked to twice has him wondering "maybe he's bluffing a worse underpair."

Surf

Holy crap, I have to come back to this post. Thanks surf.

Fabulous analysis, Surf. Thanks. Glad I wasn't crazy for thinking that folding to the 4-bet wasn't out of the question.