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Limit-->NL Discussion for experienced Limit Hold'em players wanting to learn or transition to No Limit Hold'em

 
 
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Old 11-23-2010, 04:39 AM   #51
lanyi
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by Poker Clif View Post
Pardon a dumb question from a NLHE tournament player, but if they are getting the correct odds to call, how is that exploitable?
A. They may be getting the correct odds postflop but if they are frequently paying 2-3 small bets to see a flop with mediocre hands it's exploitable as hell since you can tighten up your opening range PF and have an equity edge vs. their range.

B. There can be a situation where the pot is big enough that it's laying them correct odds to call and yet at the same time you have an equity edge and profit from them chasing.

For example: I have AA on a J73 flop HU vs. someone holding Q8. Let's say I rasied PF and he cold called and the blinds folded. So we have 5.5 SB in the pot. My opponent has ~ 37.5% equity and when I bet he's getting 6.5 to 1 on his call and so is correct to draw. At the same time I have an equity edge since my share in the pot is greater then 50%. So on any bet he calls I'm making money since my fair share is greater then what I put in.

The point here is the fact your opponent cold calls with hands like Q8s vs. a tight EP raise this will cost him money in the long run, even if he does flop a draw and chases with correct odds.

This is just one example, there are loads more. The point is that games where everyone sees a flop and chases are immensely profitable. Anyone can beat 0.02/0.04 LHE online without much effort, hell, just follow a basic hand chart and you should see a profit at those limits.
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:28 PM   #52
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by lanyi View Post
A. They may be getting the correct odds postflop but if they are frequently paying 2-3 small bets to see a flop with mediocre hands it's exploitable as hell since you can tighten up your opening range PF and have an equity edge vs. their range.

B. There can be a situation where the pot is big enough that it's laying them correct odds to call and yet at the same time you have an equity edge and profit from them chasing.

For example: I have AA on a J73 flop HU vs. someone holding Q8. Let's say I rasied PF and he cold called and the blinds folded. So we have 5.5 SB in the pot. My opponent has ~ 37.5% equity and when I bet he's getting 6.5 to 1 on his call and so is correct to draw. At the same time I have an equity edge since my share in the pot is greater then 50%. So on any bet he calls I'm making money since my fair share is greater then what I put in.

The point here is the fact your opponent cold calls with hands like Q8s vs. a tight EP raise this will cost him money in the long run, even if he does flop a draw and chases with correct odds.

This is just one example, there are loads more. The point is that games where everyone sees a flop and chases are immensely profitable. Anyone can beat 0.02/0.04 LHE online without much effort, hell, just follow a basic hand chart and you should see a profit at those limits.
Very nice and detailed explanation, I get it. Thanks.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:46 AM   #53
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by lanyi View Post
A. They may be getting the correct odds postflop but if they are frequently paying 2-3 small bets to see a flop with mediocre hands it's exploitable as hell since you can tighten up your opening range PF and have an equity edge vs. their range.

B. There can be a situation where the pot is big enough that it's laying them correct odds to call and yet at the same time you have an equity edge and profit from them chasing.

For example: I have AA on a J73 flop HU vs. someone holding Q8. Let's say I rasied PF and he cold called and the blinds folded. So we have 5.5 SB in the pot. My opponent has ~ 37.5% equity and when I bet he's getting 6.5 to 1 on his call and so is correct to draw. At the same time I have an equity edge since my share in the pot is greater then 50%. So on any bet he calls I'm making money since my fair share is greater then what I put in.

The point here is the fact your opponent cold calls with hands like Q8s vs. a tight EP raise this will cost him money in the long run, even if he does flop a draw and chases with correct odds.

This is just one example, there are loads more. The point is that games where everyone sees a flop and chases are immensely profitable. Anyone can beat 0.02/0.04 LHE online without much effort, hell, just follow a basic hand chart and you should see a profit at those limits.
I didn't take equity into account. I guess that's the facet of Limit I'm forgetting about. Aside from being a soft leak, I feel offended when villain sucks out; I usually like to make him pay for a draw, and there's no way I can do that in Limit. Equity is what I'm going to have to console myself with. However, realizing that, I still find more consolation in knowing they took the worst of it to make their hand, not just that I had more equity.
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:15 AM   #54
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by patreezy View Post
I didn't take equity into account. I guess that's the facet of Limit I'm forgetting about. Aside from being a soft leak, I feel offended when villain sucks out; I usually like to make him pay for a draw, and there's no way I can do that in Limit. Equity is what I'm going to have to console myself with. However, realizing that, I still find more consolation in knowing they took the worst of it to make their hand, not just that I had more equity.
Yeah, I didn't really think about continuing with the hand being correct for both players. Of course, in NL this happens much less often because if you have the made hand you can often price someone out of (or into) a pot.
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Old 11-27-2010, 06:03 AM   #55
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by lanyi View Post
A. They may be getting the correct odds postflop but if they are frequently paying 2-3 small bets to see a flop with mediocre hands it's exploitable as hell since you can tighten up your opening range PF and have an equity edge vs. their range
I don't really agree with that.

It just depends on so much stuff.

Like if his range has mostly showdownlable hands or nonshowdownlable hands., if he's showdonwbound or if he peels with bad odds or not, if he's aggro or passive postflop with draws.

Depending on that, you may be better of loosening up.

It's not only a question of equity edge. Fold equity is also very important, although sometimes difficult to quantify.

In other words, the concept "tight is right" is overrated.
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Old 11-27-2010, 06:13 AM   #56
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by dragon1893 View Post
I don't really agree with that.

It just depends on so much stuff.

Like if his range has mostly showdownlable hands or nonshowdownlable hands., if he's showdonwbound or if he peels with bad odds or not, if he's aggro or passive postflop with draws.

Depending on that, you may be better of loosening up.

It's not only a question of equity edge. Fold equity is also very important, although sometimes difficult to quantify.

In other words, the concept "tight is right" is overrated.
You are correct but the discussion was from a POV of loose passive games where over half the table sees a flop and people call, call, call to chase anything. This is the experience people who dislike limit are referring to which is typical of the nano limits online or small stakes live. In these games fold equity is useless and not relevant and it's all about value. The only "outplaying" of your opponents required (and profitable) is to show up at SD with a better hand because 95% of the time there is a SD.
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Old 11-27-2010, 06:15 AM   #57
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Re: I just don't get No limit

Now Dragon - how about you pop your cherry and grunch that hand I posted a few days ago which still hasn't gotten any replies. Let's see you stove a NL hand
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:20 PM   #58
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Re: I just don't get No limit

NL players are way to results oriented imo.

"Whaaa, top pair on the flop didn't win... whaaaa!" is a whine we hear way to often.

It's like all they want to do is flop top pair and then end the hand right there.

Get some gambool son

Last edited by Wolfram; 11-27-2010 at 12:23 PM. Reason: this rant probably only applies to bad to mediocre NL players
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:38 PM   #59
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by Wolfram View Post
NL players are way to results oriented imo.

"Whaaa, top pair on the flop didn't win... whaaaa!" is a whine we hear way to often.

It's like all they want to do is flop top pair and then end the hand right there.

Get some gambool son

lol, so true.

My favorite is "I can't protect my good hands PF. I mean I pick up AA, raise PF and still get 5 caller. It's just bingo". You hear this and you know you're speaking to someone with a limited concept of what the game is all about.

I've come to realize many just mechnically master an average NL strategy which is probably enough to break even, or even be a winner at low stake live games where the average skill is poor. But these same players struggle to win online at even the lowest stakes playing their beloved NL holdem. Suddenly calling PF OOP with 76s HU isn't such hot stuff and gets punished quickly when the avergae player is much more skilled.
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Old 12-04-2010, 07:41 PM   #60
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by lanyi View Post
lol, so true.

My favorite is "I can't protect my good hands PF. I mean I pick up AA, raise PF and still get 5 caller. It's just bingo". You hear this and you know you're speaking to someone with a limited concept of what the game is all about.

I've come to realize many just mechnically master an average NL strategy which is probably enough to break even, or even be a winner at low stake live games where the average skill is poor. But these same players struggle to win online at even the lowest stakes playing their beloved NL holdem. Suddenly calling PF OOP with 76s HU isn't such hot stuff and gets punished quickly when the avergae player is much more skilled.
I don't understand how this demonstrates a lack of intelligence on limit. That's the reality of it. You can't get people off of any hand, so a lot of it based on people drawing out on you, etc. Like with AA, 5 people have the odds to limp and there's a good chance one of them is going to hit two pair or something. Please elaborate on your point as I don't totally understand it. People always have the odds to chase their draws, so yeah while you're getting equity in the longrun if you're in a pot with AA and three other players are with you until the river chasing a straight and flush draw, there's a solid chance you're going to get beat by at least one player because they do have the odds in going for it. To me that makes the game less interesting, everyone has the right and odds to be in until the end, so it's a drawfeast.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:59 AM   #61
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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I don't understand how this demonstrates a lack of intelligence on limit. That's the reality of it. You can't get people off of any hand, so a lot of it based on people drawing out on you, etc. Like with AA, 5 people have the odds to limp and there's a good chance one of them is going to hit two pair or something. Please elaborate on your point as I don't totally understand it. People always have the odds to chase their draws, so yeah while you're getting equity in the longrun if you're in a pot with AA and three other players are with you until the river chasing a straight and flush draw, there's a solid chance you're going to get beat by at least one player because they do have the odds in going for it. To me that makes the game less interesting, everyone has the right and odds to be in until the end, so it's a drawfeast.
The game is based on maximizing equity. This doesn't necessarily come from outpricing draws and "protecting" your hand. Players never fold? You need to learn how to value bet thinner. They call you down with Ace high? Learn to value bet any pair. The biggest difference I can think of is that in a loose NL game you can just nit it up, wait for premiums, play 4 hands all night and show a profit. In LHE this doesn't work and you need to play more hands and work a bit harder to profit in the same types of games. To me, the ability to play more hands while still playing a winning strategy has appeal vs. NL where I'm forced to play less hands in these same situations.

There's plenty of skill involved in fixed limit betting structures. Not suprisingly HORSE and other mixed game rotations (like 8-game online) are predominately fixed limit games. If this was all just one big luck fest you wouldn't see any pros playing them.
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