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Limit-->NL Discussion for experienced Limit Hold'em players wanting to learn or transition to No Limit Hold'em

 
 
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Old 08-25-2010, 02:55 PM   #26
Natastic
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by wtfdude View Post
Are you serious?
no, he isn't. 2+2 joke....."No money in x, everyone's solid" where x = whatever form of poker is the target of OP's complaint(s).
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:00 PM   #27
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by Wolfram View Post
If anything, NL is more math based cause the math is so easy in LHE that everyone can do it. A lot of people just don't know anything about the math in NL so they think it's all about feel.

LHE is just as much about reading your opponent as NL is. How you use that info is different for the games however.
+1
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:15 AM   #28
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Re: I just don't get No limit

problem is that skilled limit players want to start at higher stakes which is why they get wrecked. Give yourself 40 bucks, go down to .01/.02, and work your way up (move up to .02/.05 at 100 bucks, .05/.10 at 200, so on and so forth. It shouldnt be about the money you make, it should be about learning how to beat the level over a decent sample size.

In micro NL, a good rule of thumb is that if someone raises, that means they have a monster. (and if you raise with anything other than a monster, its a bluff)

Look thru the suggestions thread. Every time someone has a decent but not great hand (I dont know, JJ OOP, and a K comes out on the turn), they always say "B/F turn". Because the opponent betting doesnt mean anything, the opponent raising means a lot, and if the opponent calls you probably have him beat.

also, in limit you can call people down with marginal holdings because you have pot odds. Bluffcatching in microstakes NL is basically death. a flop mistake gets magnified all the way to the river.
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:32 PM   #29
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by wtfdude View Post
Are you serious? I mean micro stakes are not that soft as it used to be and players are getting better day day with all these 2+2/cr/dc etc stuff but "everyone's solid"? come on.. Everytime I join fr cg table there are some LAGs, maniacs..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0iIYg3mGl4
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:48 AM   #30
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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So I've bee playing online cash limit for a few years now and I play well enough to hold my own, when I venture onto the no-limit micro tables its a different story. I just don't get it, I mean is there something I'm missing here? I raise 3BB and everyone folds, these guys just won't call, in limit they cold call all the time.
See that's the thing I don't like about online limit, I haven't played limit live. People just call, raise, 3 bet until it's capped and it's a crap shoot from there. In limit freerolls it's the worst. Only later on in the tournament does it resemble poker and people actually thinking and FOLDING. In NL freerolls and paid tournies you'll see plenty of action as well as cash games. I'm a NL player and play online and live all the time, mostly cash games. I've been sucked out so many times in limit because of the capped out call/raising every street. I have yet to see everyone check it down on a street, in NL limit at least people check. After the showdown, people would be sitting there with **** for hands like 2,9os, 3,10 suited, maybe some low/mid pocket pair, K,ass, etc. Every single time I keep thinking that if this was no limit this mother****er probably wouldn't have called if I bet enough or raised without having to be capped.

Quote:
It seems like no limit is about stealing the blinds or stacking someone on the flop with the nuts, nothing in between, show any strength and everyone folds unless they have a good hand (which is usually better than mine). When I do actually see the flop (which seems a rare occurrence) with like KK and the flop looks blank I go all in (short stacked) and someone calls with a set or 2 pair or they fold -oops. In limit losing a pot doesn't really bother me as I know I can win it back, lose a pot in no limit an it could take hours or days of play to get back (if ever). Also it seems like I can only play hands in late position or I just get bullied out getting raised to the left.
It's not about stealing blinds it's about knowing your hand strength as well as what you think the other person's hand strength is. I had a guy a few days ago get pissed at me during the 1st round of the Pokerstars Big game for calling his raise during pre-flop betting with Q3suited. Something I'd never normally play but he didn't raise that much but after getting a couple of reads on him, I figured he was trying to steal my blind. In limit I guarantee someone would've called/raise to the cap with Q3. Most people would fold that garbage in NL. He was small and I was big. Anyways I wanted to see a flop. In fact and unfortunately for him, he wasn't trying to steal the blinds that time and I flopped a Q high flush draw, he bets I call and hit the flush on the turn. He goes all in and I call against his pocket 6's that tripped on the turn with a 6 diamond giving me a Q high flush. It would've been a donkey move if I didn't have a read on him but this guy was stealing pots more than I liked.

From there on we had similar stacks of around $50-60k and he ended up getting close to $200k. People were kissing his ass with their later comments on his table captaining and he was just shoving all in pre-flop trying to bully. There was no way on earth he was getting good enough hands to shove over $100k so frequently pre-flop and even after the flop, but who wants to play bingo all day when it's Poker? I was playing TAG being very selective with hands, folding stuff like KQ, J10 etc. when I thought necessary. Stuff that donks and fish couldn't imagine folding for lack of poker discipline. He dropped back down to around $50k and I was around the same flip flopping between $50 and $80K. He goes on all in on a later hand with pocket 8's and I had AJos. I was sick of him and said to hell with it and called. He flopped a FH 8's full of J's on the turn I caught another J for quads eliminating him from the Pokerstars Big Game round 1 tourney.

Losing a pot in limit isn't like loosing a pot in NL because if it's big enough it can cripple you.

Quote:
Even at the micros limits there is no action, I just don't understand how no limit can be fun to play, are these guys sadists or something, playing tight in limit is tough but playing for hours and never seeing a showdown because you have to fold all the time is like watching paint dry. Am I just supposed to play for hours waiting until a situation arises when I can stack someone with 2pair+?
I don't know where you're playing not to see action in NL but I've seen some decent pots in micro limits. Like .2c/.4c tables I've seen frequent pots of .50c after the flop. By the turn it's well over $1 up to $3. On .5c/.10 most people have around $2-20 and people with $2 get up to around $10 after a several of pots.

I've went into .10c/.25 tables with only $5 and left after 10 minutes with over $20.

Last edited by Will Gotti; 08-29-2010 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:13 AM   #31
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Re: I just don't get No limit

NL is a boring nitfest. If you happen to get a fish he will most likely quit after losing a buy-in or two. Same goes usually for winning. It's a game where people are waiting for setups. Pretty much same goes for PLO.
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Old 08-30-2010, 12:25 AM   #32
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by Will Gotti View Post
...lots of words, removed so people don't have to scroll down half a page...
I see where you are coming from, however - and I mean this in the best possible way as I know very little about no limit strat - you are showing a severe lacking in understanding of how to correctly play limit. Many here would love to play in games where people call down with anything, or cap pre flop with Q3. Limit is not a game about pushing people off hands or making big plays which is where your understanding seems to be going wrong. Limit is about pushing lots of small edges. If someone is calling down with any two stop trying to push them off the hand and instead value bet them light. If some maniac is betting and raising with any two then call them down light. I would love to be in pots with someone who caps pre with Q3 as even if it gets multiway the overlay this person is providing the pot is huge and is something to be embraced rather than be scared of.

When limit guys talk about no limit being boring they are not referring to a lack of big pots, they are talking about limit being a game where all 4 streets are played in most hands rather than it being a game of pre-flop and flop with the occasional turn and river. If 2 players get all in pre flop in a no limit game, the limit guy doesn't think this is an action game because the pot is big, the limit guy will think this is boring as the action is over before the flop is even dealt. This is probably the fundamental difference in why limit and no limit folks enjoy the game. The no limit folks enjoy the rush of playing for big pots and sacrifice some post flop action, the limit folks prefer lots of post flop action and sacrifice the larger pots to achieve this.
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Old 08-30-2010, 07:13 AM   #33
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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I see where you are coming from, however - and I mean this in the best possible way as I know very little about no limit strat - you are showing a severe lacking in understanding of how to correctly play limit. Many here would love to play in games where people call down with anything, or cap pre flop with Q3. Limit is not a game about pushing people off hands or making big plays which is where your understanding seems to be going wrong. Limit is about pushing lots of small edges. If someone is calling down with any two stop trying to push them off the hand and instead value bet them light. If some maniac is betting and raising with any two then call them down light. I would love to be in pots with someone who caps pre with Q3 as even if it gets multiway the overlay this person is providing the pot is huge and is something to be embraced rather than be scared of.
I agree my limit skills are severely lacking but on the flipside, the way limit players in this thread are going on about NL are honestly ill informed and they're severely lacking in their understanding of NL as well. I've only played a limited amount of limit so I'm by no means a person to talk about it much. I just know what I've experienced playing limit coming from a NL background. So either way, what it sounds like is the limit players in here don't know much about NL and vice versa.

What you're talking about, I honestly do not see happening in lower limit games. It's just call, raise, 3 bet, cap, rinse repeat. Like I said before, I did see some actual poker further into the limit tournaments I participated in. Early on, no way.

Quote:
When limit guys talk about no limit being boring they are not referring to a lack of big pots, they are talking about limit being a game where all 4 streets are played in most hands rather than it being a game of pre-flop and flop with the occasional turn and river. If 2 players get all in pre flop in a no limit game, the limit guy doesn't think this is an action game because the pot is big, the limit guy will think this is boring as the action is over before the flop is even dealt. This is probably the fundamental difference in why limit and no limit folks enjoy the game. The no limit folks enjoy the rush of playing for big pots and sacrifice some post flop action, the limit folks prefer lots of post flop action and sacrifice the larger pots to achieve this.
How can they say it's boring when they don't have as much experience in NL as they do limit? It just doesn't make sense. I honestly don't know where you limit guys play NL where you only occasionally get past the flop and get lucky enough to see a turn and possibly the river. That's absurd. You can go pretty much anywhere and read/hear about the action that heats up on the turn and people getting sucked out on the river. Etc. etc.

I don't know enough of the apparent differences about limit, but I do find myself extremely bored off my ass with it.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:58 AM   #34
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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How can they say it's boring when they don't have as much experience in NL as they do limit? It just doesn't make sense. I honestly don't know where you limit guys play NL where you only occasionally get past the flop and get lucky enough to see a turn and possibly the river. That's absurd. You can go pretty much anywhere and read/hear about the action that heats up on the turn and people getting sucked out on the river. Etc. etc.

I don't know enough of the apparent differences about limit, but I do find myself extremely bored off my ass with it.
With limit you can be far more aggressive with weaker hands because there is no fear of getting stacked. I find NL boring because you have to be more cautious and basically try to make the nuts against a second nut hand.
I've played over 200K NL hands and certainly find limit is more of an "action" game. The vast majority of NL hands are not played for stacks, its mostly just small pots that end preflop or on the flop. When stacks do go in its just a cooler for someone. KK vs AA, combo draw vs set, an overpair vs 2pair etc..
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:03 AM   #35
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Re: I just don't get No limit

In LHE I love the feeling of c/r-ing the turn with second pair and knowing it's for pure value and my opponent will call me down with his bottom pair.

In NL I can't even c/r the flop with top pair for value cause then I'm "overplaying my hand" cause most opponents don't have a bet/calling range that I beat except for draws.

In NL I love the feeling of knowing that my opponent is making a scared valuebet on the river with second pair (cause he telegraphs his handstrength) and even though I missed everything I can push him off his hand by making a big raise.

In LHE I can't even push my opponent of bottom pair with a c/r on the river.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:55 AM   #36
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Re: I just don't get No limit

NL is not boring if you are multitabling , 10-20 tables u will always have a good hand to play and wont ever get bored
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:06 AM   #37
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by Maso777 View Post
With limit you can be far more aggressive with weaker hands because there is no fear of getting stacked. I find NL boring because you have to be more cautious and basically try to make the nuts against a second nut hand.
I've played over 200K NL hands and certainly find limit is more of an "action" game. The vast majority of NL hands are not played for stacks, its mostly just small pots that end preflop or on the flop. When stacks do go in its just a cooler for someone. KK vs AA, combo draw vs set, an overpair vs 2pair etc..
All I've ever heard is that limit is more mathematical, seems like there'd be more thinking involved and limit players would be all over that. When you said you have to be more cautious, you only proved my point that people just bet, raise, 3 bet, cap in limit. No brainpower involved in that. It is not basically about the nuts. You can bluff more in NL and get away with it while in limit you'll more than likely get caught because you'll just get called. NL makes you think about your moves instead of just doing sh*t just to do it.

But seriously I don't know what action you guys aren't seeing. There's no reason for NL to be on TV pretty much every other day on ESPN throughout the day until the wee hours of the morning when limit gets next to no coverage. If limit had so much action it'd be getting more play from the masses.
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:09 AM   #38
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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But seriously I don't know what action you guys aren't seeing. There's no reason for NL to be on TV pretty much every other day on ESPN throughout the day until the wee hours of the morning when limit gets next to no coverage. If limit had so much action it'd be getting more play from the masses.
90% of the "action" they televise are All-in PF in donkaments when players are short. Yeah, REAL interesting stuff.
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:02 PM   #39
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Re: I just don't get No limit

I like No Limit, but I only play it live, except for the occasional online tournament of course. Online I play limit and Omaha. Like Mike Matusow says everybody and their Grandma knows how to play NL, especially online. I find I get more enjoyment out of limit and omaha online.
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:39 PM   #40
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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I like No Limit, but I only play it live, except for the occasional online tournament of course. Online I play limit and Omaha. Like Mike Matusow says everybody and their Grandma knows how to play NL, especially online. I find I get more enjoyment out of limit and omaha online.
Did you start with limit? If so, how did you find the transition to omaha? I'm assuming you are referring to PLO and not LO8? Been thinking about picking up NLHE but if it's easier from a LHE background might do the PLO thing instead
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:06 PM   #41
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Did you start with limit? If so, how did you find the transition to omaha? I'm assuming you are referring to PLO and not LO8? Been thinking about picking up NLHE but if it's easier from a LHE background might do the PLO thing instead
Yes I started with limit. PLO was just like anything else really, start small and put in some time till you get the hang of it.
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Old 10-07-2010, 11:06 AM   #42
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Re: I just don't get No limit

.......................
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:05 AM   #43
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Re: I just don't get No limit

Limit is a more skilled game that's also more fun while NL is much more profitable so it just comes down to the reasons why you play poker.

(or you can play PLO for fun and profit )
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Old 11-07-2010, 12:27 PM   #44
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Re: I just don't get No limit

I don't enjoy limit because you can't raise enough to put people off their drawing hands. It just becomes a drawfeast and you betting top pair is meaningless since they have the pot odds to call. Too much of a luckfeast.
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Old 11-08-2010, 11:39 AM   #45
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Re: I just don't get No limit

When I first started with poker I played NL because I didn't know anything else. I switched to limit pretty quickly and really loved it because of it being such an action game where you could play a wide range in a lot of spots, call down light, bet for thin value all over the place and when you were wrong it wasn't all that costly. I think part of why I liked it so much was also that I was immediately winning and the rakeback was great (I didn't even think about the fact that I payed so much rake lol). But now, a little over a year later, I find myself so frustrated with limit for all the same reasons as everyone else do. I switched to PLO for a while but felt like all you do (Wolfram wrote a post about this in the SSHE NC thread) is rep the nuts, try to get value with the nuts (which is hard because everyone folds so much) or draw to the nuts. There's so much bet/folding, also the variance in PLO is insane. Now I am trying out NL again which has been pretty cool so far with all my limit experience making me not suck as much as I did back in the day. It's soooooo less frustrating than limit that I feel tilt-proof almost.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:48 PM   #46
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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Originally Posted by Waking Up View Post
I don't enjoy limit because you can't raise enough to put people off their drawing hands. It just becomes a drawfeast and you betting top pair is meaningless since they have the pot odds to call. Too much of a luckfeast.
my head is imploding
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:41 AM   #47
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Re: I just don't get No limit

This whole thing sounds like a classic case of somebody basing their impression of NLHE on what ESPN broadcasts. Everybody unfamiliar with No Limit has this totally sensationalized idea of a game that is slow, patient, and BORING. Don't believe me? Forget ESPN's lousy shove-fest highlight reel (this is NOT poker!) and check out the final table live stream on espn3.com. You'll see hour after hour of some guy in late position raising preflop and everyone else folding. This is poker. The event is literally 12 hours long and would bore the average viewer to tears. As for the whole limit/nl debate, limit is certainly more exciting because you're involved in more hands with more players. That's the nature of the game. NL requires a LOT of patience and definitely isn't for everyone.

That said, right now I definitely prefer limit!
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Old 11-21-2010, 11:31 PM   #48
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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I don't enjoy limit because you can't raise enough to put people off their drawing hands. It just becomes a drawfeast and you betting top pair is meaningless since they have the pot odds to call. Too much of a luckfeast.
I've played .5/10 LHE on FTP and this has been my experience. Another user posted that there's no fear of getting stacked, and another said he enjoys playing a wider range in Limit than No Limit.

People play tighter NL because you CAN get stacked if you mess up once. When I play Limit, I hate that people call-call-call because they get the odds to. I think, "WTF, if homeboy has a BDanything he's gonna call. This ****'z no fun. I'm afraid of this god damn Flush Draw and wish I could bet more." But then again I've seen Ace-high win pots...a lot! Idk, I've tried it, but can't find the fun in it. Idk where the fun is at besides playing Hold'em.

tl;dr (cliffnotes)
1). NL is boring people know they can get stacked. But stacking is heart-pumping.
2). My exp with limit play is villains call-call-call only cause they get odds
3). **** a rant, I'd like to hear where the fun is at on Limit...sincerely.
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Old 11-22-2010, 03:43 AM   #49
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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When I play Limit, I hate that people call-call-call because they get the odds to
And you can't figure out how to exploit this?
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Old 11-23-2010, 02:56 AM   #50
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Re: I just don't get No limit

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And you can't figure out how to exploit this?
Pardon a dumb question from a NLHE tournament player, but if they are getting the correct odds to call, how is that exploitable?

Last edited by Poker Clif; 11-23-2010 at 02:56 AM. Reason: punctuation
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