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Old 11-18-2009, 03:43 AM   #651
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Re: The well: atakdog

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You actually are pretty good at being an obv villager which is the foundation of a good villager game.
at first i was going to say that i agree with this, but I don't really at all

at lot of new players are obvious villagers but thats just because they haven't played a lot and don't have very good wolf games, plus there is a lot of 'newbie' type villager thinking that can be very obvious to see and read

once you get more experience those tells go away
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:44 AM   #652
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Actually, it is, but for a weird reason: I can usually read you, but somehow you have trouble conveying it to most others. At first it was your werewolf background, which was very unlike the norm around here, but I'm not sure what it is now, and I intend to go back and look some more before this well is done with. I didn't mean baling on it forever, just not finishing it now.

That goes for everyone else who has asked for werewolf advice, too, but hasn't gotten an answer yet.
I completely agree, I spent lots of posts defending Thingy in a game not long ago and people were onto him HARD and I was like, what the hell he's quite the lolobv. villa here.

But it was far from being the consensus so I dont know about that.

We were v/v btw.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:50 AM   #653
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Advice on improving my villa game is a tough one?
Get randed a seer 1 time in a long game and realize what you need to do to provide seer cover properly and how to play seer in general so you're more aware of things/seery thinking/people's fakepeeks and whether they make sense.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:54 AM   #654
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Re: The well: atakdog

I think most of the thinking that goes on about seer play is just wrong and bad

villages would be better off if nobody left fake peeks compared to what we have going on now, where people just randomly pick people on day 1 as a villager and hope they are correct.

Better not to leave any peeks at all. That way when you're actually the seer you can continue to not leave peeks, but also to make fake-seering easier as a villager when needed.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:55 AM   #655
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Re: The well: atakdog

I have come round to believe Luck is right fwiw, and that seers are generally too powerful if played correctly. As in overpowered, even.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:58 AM   #656
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Re: The well: atakdog

if you never leave peeks as a seer/villager that means

1) wolves can never eliminate you as a seer candidate

2) you can come out on any day you want with basically whatever peeks you want (still need to make them somewhat consistent with your posts obviously, but you get the idea)
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:00 AM   #657
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Can anyone or anything reach you when you are depressed or are you just gone until it passes?
Depends on how deep I get. But most of the time, yes, I'm reachable, and can even be cheered up for a while; sometimes I can even be dragged out of it.

Two things do it. First, feeling loved and appreciated and safe is a prerequisite to my remaining functional when I'm on the way down. That may be why I stayed with K's mother for so long, because though we were a terrible match in many ways, she was supportive in just the right ways when things were bad.

Second, the only thing that can actually drag me me out, so far as I know or have seen, is work. If i can somehow start working (very tough to achieve when I'm in that state), I can feel good enough about myself, and perhaps more importantly almost forget that I'm depressed, and it can pass. (It also sometimes goes too far, but for me the depression is far worse than the other side.)

My son figured this out a while ago. (I've told this story before, in endurance — but it belongs here too.) When he was nine we were at Enchanted Rock (which is about 75 miles west of Austin) on a camping trip that he'd asked to take just efore he was to head home at the end of the summer, and the following conversation occurred:

Dad?
Yes, K.
I need to talk to you.
[We sit down on a rock.] What is it, K?
Dad, I know that every year when I leave you get sad.
That's true, I do.
So this year after I go, I think that you should work a lot, because you like working.
That's true, and that's probably what I'll do.
And I think that you should get a girlfriend.
I think you're right about that too.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:00 AM   #658
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
I think most of the thinking that goes on about seer play is just wrong and bad

villages would be better off if nobody left fake peeks compared to what we have going on now, where people just randomly pick people on day 1 as a villager and hope they are correct.

Better not to leave any peeks at all. That way when you're actually the seer you can continue to not leave peeks, but also to make fake-seering easier as a villager when needed.
i tend to post my fake and real peeks somewhere around d3 or usually even later as both a villager and a seer.

what people dont realize is posting fakepeeks halfway through the day after someone gets cleared or discussed but when it was very unlikely for them to have peeked that person last night does nothing to help and just eliminates them from seerhunts.

people need to think of who they would have peeked had they been seer, and then think of a way they would have posted those peeks as a seer in the game that theyre in.

plus fakepeeking on d3+ lets you develop better reads and completely random reads could be used as fakepeeks.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:01 AM   #659
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
if you never leave peeks as a seer/villager that means

1) wolves can never eliminate you as a seer candidate

2) you can come out on any day you want with basically whatever peeks you want (still need to make them somewhat consistent with your posts obviously, but you get the idea)
3) if wolves nk you before you come out, village gets no information
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:04 AM   #660
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Re: The well: atakdog

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3) if wolves nk you before you come out, village gets no information
thats of course the downside to that approach

but if a bunch of people aren't eliminating themselves as seer candidates in every game (like they do)

then the risk of that happening is greatly reduced
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:06 AM   #661
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by atakdog View Post
and the following conversation occurred:

Dad?
Yes, K.
I need to talk to you.
[We sit down on a rock.] What is it, K?
Dad, I know that every year when I leave you get sad.
That's true, I do.
So this year after I go, I think that you should work a lot, because you like working.
That's true, and that's probably what I'll do.
And I think that you should get a girlfriend.
I think you're right about that too.
quite awesome the gf advice part



go TL!
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:07 AM   #662
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
at first i was going to say that i agree with this, but I don't really at all

at lot of new players are obvious villagers but thats just because they haven't played a lot and don't have very good wolf games, plus there is a lot of 'newbie' type villager thinking that can be very obvious to see and read

once you get more experience those tells go away
Well, I'm going to disagree with you, or at least with what I think you're saying.

I think a lot of experienced players believe that they don't have to be villagery, for something like the reason you're saying here. I believe this is wrong. A good villager is villager enough that he doesn't get mislynched, and that he doesn't come close enough to it to distract others from wolfhunting. there are exceptions, people who can actually find wolves by making themselves lynch candiadates and people who can avoid lynch no matter how wolfy they are, but those exceptions are outnumbered by people who think villageriness needs to be part of their game, but are wrong.

True, it's not really a tell because good players can look vilalgery as wolves too, but unless one is sacrificing his village game to improve his wolf meat, which sucks, that doesn't imply that coasting on it as a villager is appropriate.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:08 AM   #663
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Re: The well: atakdog

Plus Nich,

Whats more important to consider, your seer game, or your village game?

Being able to fake seer effectively as a villager is a lot lot more important than playing some perfect-in-a-vacuum-seer-game.

I'm essentially arguing that its correct to play a little sub-optimally as an actual seer in order to fake seer as a villager better. But I don't even think that not leaving peeks at all is incorrect even in a vacuum.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:16 AM   #664
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Well, I'm going to disagree with you, or at least with what I think you're saying.

I think a lot of experienced players believe that they don't have to be villagery, for something like the reason you're saying here
That may very well be the case. But I don't think that makes what I said any less truthful.

All I was saying is that its easy for newbies to look villagery. Some of them at least.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:17 AM   #665
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Re: The well: atakdog

faking seer as a villager is important luckbox?

its usually gonna put you in lynch danger the next day if your claim has some peek wrong and the wolves dont nk you no?
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:18 AM   #666
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by WinEvryRacex View Post
Get randed a seer 1 time in a long game and realize what you need to do to provide seer cover properly and how to play seer in general so you're more aware of things/seery thinking/people's fakepeeks and whether they make sense.
This is actually very good advice for him, and for a few others who have posted asking for advice about their village games.


Re what good seer cover is, I will qualifiedly agree with Dustin that there is a lot more to it than leaving fake peeks. Seers act different from villagers; as a seer you should try to eliminate that tell, while as a vanillager you should try to replicate it. That means fake peeks (usually imo, even if you don't always leave them as the real seer, because few wolf packs will be aware of your individual seer meta, unless you've been seer several times); it also means avoiding saying things you would never say as seer (here, your seer meta may matter more).

You have to guess who the wolves are, too. I suspect I could get Dustin or chim to kill me without leaving any fake hints at all, but a brand new wolf pack will just look for the obvious, so providing cover means being obvious.


Quote:
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3) if wolves nk you before you come out, village gets no information
A big problem, but it does depend on the situation. Sometimes, a seer can tell that there is lots of cover, and that he's unlikely to die, so he can get away with not disturbing that balance. Other times, it's too big a risk.

I am a big fan of leaving hints that are so obscure that they can be found only when someone already knows I'm seer, but villages seem not always to understand how I'm leaving them so this is dangerous to rely on them.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:18 AM   #667
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Re: The well: atakdog

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That may very well be the case. But I don't think that makes what I said any less truthful.

All I was saying is that its easy for newbies to look villagery. Some of them at least.
Yeah mostly when they are randed villa as well
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:20 AM   #668
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
That may very well be the case. But I don't think that makes what I said any less truthful.

All I was saying is that its easy for newbies to look villagery. Some of them at least.
Oh, missed that. Completely true, and you're right that the newbie habits that make someone look villagery often go away later. I don't think it applies in thingy's case, though. This isn't newness, it's a particular style.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:24 AM   #669
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Re: The well: atakdog

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faking seer as a villager is important luckbox?

its usually gonna put you in lynch danger the next day if your claim has some peek wrong and the wolves dont nk you no?
The point that I'm trying to make is that you're going to be a normal villager more than anything else.

So if you're thinking about things from a metagame perspective, then you're actions should be geared towards your vanilla game.

I'm not making a distinction between straight-up faking seer as a villager and just leaving run-of-the-mill fake peeks. People leave wrong peeks all the time and they aren't lynched the next day. Its just that they aren't nk'd either.

If you never leave fake peeks as a villager and then all of a sudden you start leaving a bunch of correct peeks, you're probably going to get killed. So obviously some metagame considerations have to come into play.

But real genuine faking as a villager can absolutely be correct and can be devastating to the wolves.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:26 AM   #670
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Re: The well: atakdog

I obviously meant fake claiming as vanilla.

Can you expand on how/when its gonna be correct? Is it not a high variance move?

In that you buy the real seer one more day or risk a high % of being lynched the next day?
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:26 AM   #671
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Re: The well: atakdog

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
. But I don't even think that not leaving peeks at all is incorrect even in a vacuum.
even if you live long enough to come out, village lost out on data while you were hiding it

the most important thing for seer is to peek villagers that don't die before they come out

the most important thing for village is to not lynch seer or their peeks

if those 2 things always happen, we'll always get a lock

seer leaving hints can help village to not lynch seer or their peeks
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:29 AM   #672
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Re: The well: atakdog

if the seer and his peeks are obvious enough to have people lynching outside that set of players, the wolves are also reading the thread if you know what I mean
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:32 AM   #673
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Re: The well: atakdog

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seer leaving hints can help village to not lynch seer or their peeks
Well. I think to some extent my thinking is influenced by the fact that as a seer its virtually impossible for me to leave normal seer hints based on the way my village game is.

I don't do it as much any more. But I used to be in the habit of clearing people very easily. If I played that way as a villager and then started leaving clear, easy to find peeks as the seer, I wouldn't live long.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:34 AM   #674
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Re: The well: atakdog

that why you said "old habits die hard" after clearing someone d1 amairite?
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:37 AM   #675
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Re: The well: atakdog

a minor plus to leaving hints as a seer is that if another seer peeks you, that seer is pretty much an ultra-seer, they'll know not to cross-peek your peeks and will have twice as much info to make reads off of.

the one time i was seer i peeked another seer and decimated the wolves, atak may remember that game, it's the one we ended up losing
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