Vanilla 13er [GAME THREAD] - Page 7 - Puzzles and Other Games Forum

no it doesn’t

it just eliminates the ability for people to just baldly make soul reads and then use confirmation bias to convince themselves and everyone else that they are playing werewolf

06-10-2021 , 11:56 AM

#152

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

no it doesn’t

it just eliminates the ability for people to just baldly make soul reads and then use confirmation bias to convince themselves and everyone else that they are playing werewolf

That's exactly what werewolf is!

06-10-2021 , 11:57 AM

#153

Doctor Zeus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

I mean you're just an anti-tone person. But it's a discussion for postgame. Suffice to say though, I do not believe that "any tone" a person has as a wolf is wolf tone by definition.

I've inherited an anti-tone read perspective from Birdman, which I think generally holds true.

People's tone reads generally are superficial, or, biased, based on assumptions they have.

Some people are really good at justifying tone reads, and following up on them. You and Essoa's hunt on me last game is a really good example of this.

But lots of tone reads are based on assumptions/biases about someone else's play, faulty memory about that persons behaviours in previous games. These suck.

06-10-2021 , 11:59 AM

#154

Birdman10687

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75% of vanilla werewolf is just the seer and the surrounding mechanics

i know this hurts the feelings of all the people that think they are good wolf hunters but it is what is is

06-10-2021 , 12:00 PM

#155

bsball8806

bff with birdman

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 47,384

I think birdman is generally correct btw - i'm sure someone has made this argument before but heavily using tone to read people is like using physical tells in poker

06-10-2021 , 12:00 PM

#156

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus

I mean even for me in the last game I had a good tone read on you and a horrendous one on Mets-- so I'm definitely not claiming it's a foolproof method. It's still not nothing though.

06-10-2021 , 12:00 PM

#157

Esooa

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Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

no it doesn’t

it just eliminates the ability for people to just baldly make soul reads and then use confirmation bias to convince themselves and everyone else that they are playing werewolf

the idea that anything a wolf does is defacto wolfy and anything a villager does is de facto towny is antithetical to solving the game. It's working backwards. It's useless. You find wolves by creating patterns. Because villagers will do things wolves do, wolves will do things villagers do, and there's no possible way to explicitly separate them entirely. To deny this is to deny solving the game. You argue not that it's possible for a wolf to fit into a "villager pattern;" you argue the best ways to find a wolf aren't that. It's a process. It's pattern finding. It's emotional. It's not defined.

06-10-2021 , 12:01 PM

#158

Deli_

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Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 2,560

Votes from post 7 to post 157
Night in 7:59:57
---

Votes	Lynch	Voters
2	Montecore	Doctor Zeus (25), Birdman10687 (14)
1	aaronk56	filthyvermin (12)
1	bsball8806	Esooa (44)
8	not voting	aaronk56 (6), Crossnerd (0), iraisetoomuch (14), Kawamii (0), Luckbox Inc (16), Montecore (0), ShipItUp (0), VoraciousReader (3)
1	Error	bsball8806 (13)

06-10-2021 , 12:02 PM

#159

Esooa

adept

Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus

I think WW is a game of information. But there exists information overload. You tone read to find what's important. You go in depth to confirm or deny the tone read

06-10-2021 , 12:02 PM

#160

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Esooa

you are straw manning my argument now though

i didn’t say “anything a wolf does is de facto wolfy”

i was specifically talking about tone

06-10-2021 , 12:04 PM

#161

Doctor Zeus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

I mean even for me in the last game I had a good tone read on you and a horrendous one on Mets-- so I'm definitely not claiming it's a foolproof method. It's still not nothing though.

What made your tone read on me so effective was Essoa's homework that proved it by going over past games. it was a ridiculous amount of work but maddeningly successful.

06-10-2021 , 12:05 PM

#162

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Esooa

I think WW is a game of information.

And you don't want to be all loosey goosey eating a sandwich or you might miss some of it.

06-10-2021 , 12:05 PM

#163

Esooa

adept

Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

it's more like that its a circular argument

any tone that someone has as a wolf is, by defnition, a wolfy tone

if someone who is a wolf has a tone you think is villagery its simply because what you think its "wolfy" and what you think is "villagery" is wrong

"wofly tone" is literally just the tone someone has as a wolf

so saying someone has a wolfy tone when they are a wolf is true as a matter of fact

the last two paragraphs here are entirely and currently summarized by "what a wolf does is de facto wolfy"

if you disagree then okay. But it's not a straw man.

anyways, enough debate

06-10-2021 , 12:06 PM

#164

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus

What made your tone read on me so effective was Essoa's homework that proved it by going over past games. it was a ridiculous amount of work but maddeningly successful.

It's true. I probably could have been talked out of it but everything she posted just confirmed it.

06-10-2021 , 12:07 PM

#165

Birdman10687

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i love that we re-litigate this almost every game

06-10-2021 , 12:08 PM

#166

aaronk56

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Birdman sounds like a wolf

06-10-2021 , 12:08 PM

#167

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Esooa

the last two paragraphs here are entirely and currently summarized by "what a wolf does is de facto wolfy"

if you disagree then okay. But it's not a straw man.

anyways, enough debate

you are arguing against an argument that I didn’t make and attributing it to me

it is a straw man

06-10-2021 , 12:09 PM

#168

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aaronk56

Birdman sounds like a wolf

wolfy tone

amirite??

06-10-2021 , 12:11 PM

#169

Esooa

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Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

you are arguing against an argument that I didn’t make and attributing it to me

it is a straw man

you literally said any tone a wolf has is wolfy tone.

06-10-2021 , 12:11 PM

#170

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aaronk56

Birdman sounds like a wolf

I'm definitely not ready to clear him but not ready to call him a wolf either.
Him having some reads might help.

06-10-2021 , 12:14 PM

#171

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

I'm definitely not ready to clear him but not ready to call him a wolf either.
Him having some reads might help.

if i gave reads right now they would be made up

06-10-2021 , 12:23 PM

#172

Deli_

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Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 2,560

Votes from post 7 to post 171
Night in 7:37:16
---

Votes	Lynch	Voters
2	Montecore	Doctor Zeus (26), Birdman10687 (19)
1	aaronk56	filthyvermin (12)
1	Birdman10687	aaronk56 (7)
1	bsball8806	Esooa (47)
7	not voting	Crossnerd (0), iraisetoomuch (14), Kawamii (0), Luckbox Inc (19), Montecore (0), ShipItUp (0), VoraciousReader (3)
1	Error	bsball8806 (13)

06-10-2021 , 12:26 PM

#173

VoraciousReader

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Re: people sleeping.

The problem isn't villagers not knowing whether someone is actually sleeping or working or brushing their teeth or wrangling their babies, human or otherwise.

The problem is the expectation that to receive credit for being a villager you must be constantly in the thread all day long...or at least in more often than not or you must be eliminated. It's an unmeetable expectation for most people.

It's much better to judge people by their posts than by their not-posts, at least as much as reasonable or possible.