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03-25-2015 , 03:56 PM

#22901

fnord_too

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 29,116

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_K

Hey baudib1,

I'm just curious, what do you do during the week?

If you'd have come to the meet up you'd know

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:04 PM

#22902

Mark_K

Fast Food Value KING

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnord_too

If you'd have come to the meet up you'd know

Time for an Oceans 11 meetup!!!

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:05 PM

#22903

baudib1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,658

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnsall

i've started 3 betting my ace rundowns a bit less as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

I believe it touched in the topic of needing to account for what happens when getting reraised before making a raise. I doubt it said anything like what you are saying, because there are many times where raising is clearly profitable and reraises occur so infrequently that they don't negate the EV you get from getting called so often by worse hands.

I think it's a pretty important concept to consider in PLO because so often reraises are "repot" and if it's already a multiway pot it puts you in bad spots as opposed to seeing a flop where we can play much better.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:22 PM

#22904

kokiri

ffermwr moch

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

There's two points there I think:
1) avoiding having to make tough decisions in really big pots because they lead to big mistakes (strategy)
2) considering your action before the raise comes makes for a purer decision (psychology)

1 sounds like sklamsky, 2 I am pretty sure is a tommy Angelo line (if not uniquely his).

2 also pertains to 3betting 77- sometimes it helps to think 'what are my actions with what ranges' before looking at your cards, rather than 'I have 77, should I 3 bet?'.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:29 PM

#22905

aaronk56

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 17,738

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurp Durpington

3betting and folding A678ds to 4bet should be the 'correct' play but I hate letting go of such pretty hands

Really? I know I hate having an ace there sucks when 4-bet but I'm plugging some possible hands into PPT and even against AA87ds you have over 32% equity. In position I would call. I don't play a lot of PLO though.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:30 PM

#22906

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

I don't agree with your assessment of what Sklansky would say. The really tough decisions are the ones that lead to really small mistakes because the options are so similar in EV that you can't figure out which is better. Otherwise they would be easy decisions.

I believe that in TOP it said, in the context of LHE, that you should raise the river if you beat 2/3 of your opponent's non-bluffing range. This assumes that in LHE your opponent will always call the river raise with a non-bluff and that you will always call the threebet (and lose). The EV that you lose when calling the threebet is taken into account when determining the EV of the raise.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:35 PM

#22907

fnord_too

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 29,116

I think in tpfap he said don't 3 bet with hands like AQ you'd like to see a flop with but would fold to a 4 bet iirc. In other words, don't turn good hands into effectively pre flop bluffs, 3 bet hands you are happy to continue with or are happy to fold to a reraise.

Caveat: it's probably been a decade since I've read tpfap.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:35 PM

#22908

pwnsall

CFBBPC

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 65,886

i don't fold to 4 bets often but sometimes

axxxds i doubt i fold

a(xx)x is the most likely fold

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:39 PM

#22909

pwnsall

CFBBPC

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 65,886

i've seen people who won't even 4 bet aaxx pre but then go crazy with it on the flop

it's weird

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:40 PM

#22910

filthyvermin

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 60,777

i 3bet AJo last night. i hardly ever do that. i was in MP and the guy right before me opened. he is very loose. AJ is way ahead of his range and he's likely to call my 3bet with worse. he made it 60. i made it 180. i was hoping and praying no one behind me called or raised.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:40 PM

#22911

pwnsall

CFBBPC

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 65,886

but that is a spot where if they raise you can easily fold because you have the bottom of your range

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:46 PM

#22912

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

Tournament poker and cash games don't have the same preflop strategies. That AQ advice presumes that people have to shove or fold. When stacks are a bit deeper people will call more often and AQ is a good hand to have to have against people who flat threebets.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:46 PM

#22913

baudib1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,658

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

no that's not what I'm referring to. I'm at work and I'll look for it later, but it relates to the problem of raising with decent but not amazing equity and then allowing villain to slam the door on you.

like, when you bet or raise on the river with a pure bluff, getting reraised doesn't put you in a bad spot because you obviously have to fold.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:47 PM

#22914

baudib1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,658

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnsall

but that is a spot where if they raise you can easily fold because you have the bottom of your range

yes exactly this... if you get repopped here it's a trivial fold, no big deal.

3-betting a merged range for value and then folding to a 4-bet with the bottom part of you range should be standard against people who open too wide and flat too many hands OOP.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:49 PM

#22915

kokiri

ffermwr moch

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

I'm not sure that I really buy that argument, as common as it is- it holds some water in some situations, but sometimes decisions are hard not because they're close but because you put yourself in a spot where you have no idea what you're doing, or what villain is, or because you kinds know what you should do but struggle to click the right button for whatever reason. Hard doesn't always mean close.

Elsewhere, the 'turning x into a bluff' argument for not three bet folding is a heuristic that sounds sensible, but is essentially nonsense. Don't three bet because your call EV is higher, that's OK (but still not the whole story)

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:54 PM

#22916

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

I think that this has splintered into multiple arguments. I was talking about raising for value because you're getting called by lots of worse hands. In those spots you generally do not have "decent but not amazing equity" when reraised, nor are you going to be in a spot where you "have no idea what you're doing". You're going to be in a spot where the worst case scenario is that you shrug and call and lose and know that raising was still correct because of all of the other times that you're getting paid off by worse, with coolers coming along far less frequently.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 04:55 PM

#22917

fnord_too

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 29,116

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

I was responding to the speculation on where the quote came from.

But I think strategically the underlying point is valid in either: your raising range should tend to be polarized, and hands that you can call with but will fold if you raise and get reraise should typically call unless there are other considerations.

A hand like AQ pre really doesn't typically fit well into the value or (semi) bluff category in a lot of opened pots. It tends to get folds from hands that are dominated and calls and raises from hands that have good to great equity against it.

Last edited by fnord_too; 03-25-2015 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Phone posting sucks

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:00 PM

#22918

fnord_too

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 29,116

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib1

Yeah, if someone flats too many hands oop, that's going to have a huge impact on what you 3 bet with. That's not as common on line ime

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:03 PM

#22919

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

People flatting threebets are far more likely to have hands dominated by AQ than hands that dominate it. AQ almost always has live outs on the flop which allows for much better barreling options than with other non-premium hands. AQ also has a very good idea of where it is at in the hand since it makes the best pairs, and at any point you can just pot control your pairs without too much fear of giving away equity to hands with live outs.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:08 PM

#22920

fnord_too

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 29,116

You can draw the line accordingly for your game. I really don't see a whole lot of flattting 3 bets in the ring games I play.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:37 PM

#22921

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

Probably with deeper stacks. I saw some math somewhere when considering 100 BB and a 4 bet pot vs AA it's barely profitable to call and decide with a 9876ds

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:43 PM

#22922

baudib1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,658

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

yeah it has nothing to do with raising solid hands for value where you either have an easy decision to call a reraise or to fold because they're never 3-betting worse.

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:44 PM

#22923

baudib1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,658

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurp Durpington

Probably with deeper stacks. I saw some math somewhere when considering 100 BB and a 4 bet pot vs AA it's barely profitable to call and decide with a 9876ds

with 100 BB starting stacks, in a 4-bet pot, if your opponent's range is mostly AAxx, you should be getting it in on the flop (non Axx boards) with bottom pair/ gutter +

Quote

03-25-2015 , 05:48 PM

#22924

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib1

with 100 BB starting stacks, in a 4-bet pot, if your opponent's range is mostly AAxx, you should be getting it in on the flop (non Axx boards) with bottom pair/ gutter +

ya i know, the author did some equity distribution math and obviously an A*** or a KK** hand is not going to flop the necessary flop OTF (ie pair+gutter) to make calling the 4bet preflop profitable over the long run