I just finished a book on the way extrinsic rewards sabotage intrinsic motivation.

Fortunately my son is motivated by manipulating people & not by internal or external rewards.

i don't think i can understand why extrinsic or intrinsic makes a different. i mean a reward is a reward, right?

I'm kinda on this theory, if it's a positive reinforcer rock it

Sounds like could be bad if true

Schools publicly rewarding positive character attributes like kindness and generosity is, imo, different than parents doing it one on one. My kids schools (up to grade 8) never gave academic awards until graduation, only character ones, and kids today are significantly better people than kids were when I was young.

that's exactly the problem

our mental model of motivation is as a single thing with varying degree which would mean the source of motivation wouldn't matter

the truth is the source of motivation matters more than amount of motivation and external motivators are not just useless but actively harmful

it shouldn't require studies to figure this out. We've all experienced it

how do you react to being manipulated?

young children are curious about the world and enjoy learning things

it doesn't take long to smother natural curiosity and have them asking "do we need to know this for the test?"

behaviorism is a terrible model of human behavior. Ideas, attitudes and perceptions matter

if your goal is getting someone to do what you want in the short term, rock the bribes and threats. The effectiveness of such tactics is short term and proportional to the power imbalance

when the rewards stop, the behavior goes right back and the cost is a change in attitude toward the behavior being "reinforced"

when you bribe someone to do something, that thing becomes less appealing

if you tell kids they can draw with the markers only if they draw with the crayons first, they will end up less interested in using crayons later

if you do it the other way around, they'll lose interest in markers

people also perform worse when they're being rewarded for how well they do on a task

so if my reward for being kind to someone is feeling good about helping them, and feeling good about myself, then that's all good, right?

but if someone else gives me some other kind of reward for it on top of it, like $100 that's not good cuz there is a danger i will lose interest in the reward of just feeling good, and just want the $100?

Basically

It's also related to why you shouldn't pay your friends to help you do things.

If you pay them, it becomes about the time value of their money and you sure as hell typically aren't paying them a fair wage for what they are doing. (Think "helping you move".)

But if you buy them pizza or give them beer, then people associate helping you with just being your friend (you would get pizza withthem other times, right?)

Daniel Pink gave a really good TED talk about it, in the context of employee motivation in creative work. Basically, paying people more (bonuses, overtime, etc) only works if the job they're doing is one where more time means more success - sales, assembly lines, etc - and is counterproductive in creative areas

https://theconversation.com/teaching...ullying-158493

Random link sorta.

I can already envision in 15 years when kids talk about how they're ****ed up because they weren't allowed to care about themselves and their own autonomy.

Also related crying and apologizing are good tools for getting what you want.

it's directly related to the conversation

giving kids (or employees) respect, autonomy and responsibility works

trying to directly control behavior through coercion and manipulation is counterproductive

the phone plan that mark recommended i buy expired i could never figure out how to get it to work

i suck at life so bad

I warned you about this!!!!!

smh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57442175

Sorta between suns comment and the newly discovered Canadian dead kids. The more things change?

Maybe slightly too political for this thread

i know! that's the only reason i know it's expired. i didn't check or anything. i just think it's been over 90 days

smart phone. dumb person

yikes

I didn't know there was an industry for parents arranging to have their children kidnapped and abused

i didn't click on the article, but dude, hella parents are hiring people to kidnap their kids and abuse them. it's shockingly common with rich parents in sf.

they don't want to, or can't, deal with their kids so they see this option to just pay someone to fix it for them, and they go for it *sigh* so ****ed up.

BUT it's pretty different having rich ****ed up parents who choose to hire someone to steal you away... and... having the govt come at gunpoint and steal your kids away, send them to a school to be abused and taught their culture and heritage are dirty and bad

Yeah I didn't know either. Sounds like Paris Hilton and Britney were treated quite poorly (in different ways)

I agree with filthy parents betrayal likely worse

i'd guess 95% chance this is a joke

Filthy is learning how to read me!

The new saved by the bell is one of the weirder shows I've ever seen. I kinda dig it.