maybe that’s why I won in your Walrus? hmm

Anyhow Herbie, it’s haunting me that I am doing a very poor job at explaining this and I don’t want muddle things and do a disservice to marginalized groups, especially since I move through the world with relative ease and don’t out my gender identity often (or feel the need to). It isn’t “not liking the stereotypes” it’s just that those are easy moments to describe the internal question of “what makes me a girl? I don’t feel I’m a girl”. Stereotypes are just tools for signaling gender, and growing up were often points of contention for me when the signals I wanted to send were restricted by the body I was in or the perceptions other people had of that body.

Going to bed early isn’t a stereotype that I am aware of, but it wasn’t the going to bed early that I objected to, it was the “you’re a girl go with the others like you” when I felt like “what makes me a girl? I’m not this thing people keep telling me I am” and the constant reminders of that disconnect through stereotyping. It was bending my appearance and feeling comfortable with people mistaking me as a boy sometimes and enjoying being seen as a girl other times. Here are some definitions to help us all understand:

These are taken from a website used to help teens understand these concepts; while I enjoy academic papers and whatnot on the topic I often find that resources for teaching children are often the most clear. As with most things, it really isn’t much more complex than the way you would explain it to a child, adults have a funny way of making things more complicated than is necessary: Gender Identity Teen Talk

Hopefully my codes all come out correct. On that site there is also a definition for Cis you may be interested in since that is how you identify. Given your upbringing, the definition of gender expression may also be of interest. I’m going to stop posting about this because all my posts turn out longer than I intend and that usually means I’m just rambling without saying much :/ Thanks Politics thread for allowing it.

I liked altered carbon season 1 but couldn't get in to 2.

"I don't feel like 'blank'" sounds like an identity in itself sorta, I think there are probably lots of people who never felt an identity as some people mean the word and just think of themselves in a matter of fact "I am 'these things'" way.

So in that sense saying genderless seems different than someone who says they have no gender.

This is pretty much where I'm getting to, only with a reversed perspective (obviously). That so many people that feel so much like the two gender system doesn't fit them that they genuinely feel like it doesn't actually exist is still something that's hard for me to truly reconcile. I also wonder if the increase in people identifying as non-gender confirming reflects the true feelings of past generations (i.e. the ratio hasn't changed over time due to social and technological changes); that there are so many terms for gender identity is something that I still don't really grok (even though I recognize it's not "for" me).

Is it fair to describe gender dysphoria purely as a reaction to socially imposed gender archetyping?

There should be no problem of "fit" with no categories in which to do so.

We create categories socially and individually. Individually, we can acknowledge the inadequacy of gender categories, but we cannot deny that they nevertheless exist, and operate, socially.

To obliterate the categories, we should act apart from them and encourage others to do the same.

Thus, the trans gender movement, in a way, undermines its own interests, if not its aims, by insisting that a vagina'ed person can be "male".

Unless it is otherwise (in a non-subjugating way) useful to maintain "male" and "female" categories of identity, but I haven't seen anything to that effect.

Im not sure, but I don’t think so. Gender dysphoria is more about distress over the sex you are assigned at birth and your gender identity, not a response to gender archetyping. The stereotypes are just how gender is expressed, not how it is felt, I think. I’m not an expert.

Caveat that these observations are made from a highly privileged position...

I can see that recognizing the arbitrariness of gender categories may only now be possible due to the bravery of trans activists (including, especially, those who merely live as their true selves) come before.

As in physiological envy?

I don’t know, I’m not trans, but I think no, as in “why do I have a penis, I feel like I’m supposed to have a vagina and breasts” but really idk and I shouldn’t speak on it. I watched a really good YouTube video on it last night, I’ll find it.

How does one decouple the ideas

There is an interesting move in Kabbalah to identify "male" and "female" aspects of the divine in terms of giving and receiving, eponymously modeled primally upon the functions of the respective sexual organs.

Imposing this identitive scheme upon humans of course remains problematic.

Which ideas?

The bold is close to what I'm getting at.

If we lost a Kelhus and gained an UglyDelicious I’m gonna call that a huge net win. Just my 2c.

I tried to make this point and was called out for expressing transphobic attitudes, but you seem to be doing a better job with it. But yeah, saying the world is abound with myraid genders but that it's important to be recognized as 1 of 2 has some logical contradictions.

All of them! But gender norms and junk I guess, even if you reject gender norms you are rejecting them in the framework of being raised in them, theoretically.

I thought you were vaguely touching on something like this.

There's lots of open to interpretation, probably.

Like I may say I believe kelhus isn't intentionally pushing fake science, therefore i "trust" he's being honest in that regard, others may say if he isn't cognitive enough to know he's being dishonest then he's not trustworthy anyway.

And I may say I don't call people ***** and ****** out of respect, but some may say they use ***** in defiance of respect, and they don't use ****** out of compassion (or something like that).

Dunno if that could leak into these questions, but maybe.

What logical contradictions do you think it has?

It seems pretty obvious that someone could say gender is not binary while at the same time feeling they are a woman. There is no contradiction there.

I believe gender is not binary but I feel that I am a man. What contradiction do I have there?

Just an important point for the general discussion—

gender norms and gender are not the same thing

If you feel that you like to do things that society typically considers masculine that is not the same thing as internally feeling you are a man

Same in reverse

I interpret non-binary to mean non-dichotomous. Are you saying that is not the correct way to look at it?

I make a point not to call out ideas a transphobic, racist, etc as much as I can, it doesn’t mean I think they aren’t transphobic or homophobic or racist or whatever the case may be. All you’re pointing out here is that I am approaching the conversation a different way, which has no standing on what the ideas being expressed are or are not. Just a btw.

I don’t see the contradiction in saying it is important to be recognized as 1 of 2, you are saying the “of 2” where I think it could easily be 1 of n, where n is whatever number of genders exist.