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12-13-2017 , 01:08 PM

#79476

Luckbox Inc

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 61,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

The only group that has done anything significant to defeat ISIS is the Syrian people and their government

Don't forget the Russians.

12-13-2017 , 01:08 PM

#79477

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Meanwhile the US, UK, Israel, Turkey, Qatar etc have done everything to promote the ISIS threat

12-13-2017 , 01:08 PM

#79478

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by amplify

the difference between Obama bombing policy and Trump bombing policy is nil

That's not true at all. Bombings and civilian casualties are up considerably under Trump.

12-13-2017 , 01:09 PM

#79479

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Don't forget the Russians.

Yeah kind of

12-13-2017 , 01:09 PM

#79480

amplify

Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 78,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Don't forget the Russians.

I never do.

12-13-2017 , 01:09 PM

#79481

amplify

Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 78,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

That's not true at all. Bombings and civilian casualties are up considerably under Trump.

yes, I got to that

12-13-2017 , 01:10 PM

#79482

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by amplify

& the Kurds

YPG is doing more to help ISIS now than hurt them, tbh. They have basically become a US front group in the region.

12-13-2017 , 01:33 PM

#79483

Aksdal

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 34,199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

A party with ideas so bad, it took a child molester as an opponent to get people in Alabama to vote for them.

Oh we're judging ideas based on how many votes they get now? :0

12-13-2017 , 01:41 PM

#79484

kokiri

ffermwr moch

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Our support for the Saudis in Yemen is pretty shameful. Isis has basically been defeated in Syria. We are still unfortunately in Afghanistan. Beyond that idk.

Add special forces ops to drone strikes and it’ll be pretty

.

And actually I think even the neolibs itt have expressed grave disquiet at the military dimension to Western foreign policy. Maybe not zorkman, though.

12-13-2017 , 01:43 PM

#79485

kokiri

ffermwr moch

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by soah

That's not true at all. Bombings and civilian casualties are up considerably under Trump.

I do wonder if that’s due to a change in policy or a change in the stage of the war against Isis.

12-13-2017 , 02:19 PM

#79486

tappokone

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 12,418

Quote:

Originally Posted by filthyvermin

i think that's a misrepresentation. civil rights weren't the end all be all. the real issue was equality, justice, safety... not just being able to drink from the same drinking fountain.

You can't have equality, justice, or safety in an apartheid state.

Here's a transcript of the speech. The argument for black people who voted for Democrats being chumps centers on the notion that they were tricked into voting for Johnson by the promise of civil rights legislation, but in truth the Demcoratic leadership are in cahoots with the Dixiecrats and have no intention of delivering on that promise. This analysis turned out to be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malcolm X

You're the one who has that power. You can keep Johnson in Washington D.C., or you can send him back to his Texas cotton patch. [applause] You're the one who sent Kennedy to Washington. You're the one who put the present Democratic administration in Washington, D.C. The whites were evenly divided. It was the fact that you threw 80 percent of your votes behind the Democrats that put the Democrats in the White House.

When you see this, you can see that the Negro vote is the key factor. And despite the fact that you are in a position to be the determining factor, what do you get out of it? The Democrats have been in Washington, D.C. only because of the Negro vote. They've been down there four years. And they're – all other legislation they wanted to bring up they've brought it up, and gotten it out of the way, and now they bring up you. And now they bring up you! You put them first and they put you last. Because you're a chump! [applause] A political chump.

In Washington, D.C., in the House of Representatives there are 257 who are Democrats. Only 177 are Republican. In the Senate there are 67 Democrats. Only 33 are Republicans. The party that you backed controls two-thirds of the House of Representatives and the Senate and still they can't keep their promise to you. 'Cause you're a chump. [applause]

Any time you throw your weight behind a political party that controls two-thirds of the government, and that party can't keep the promise that it made to you during election-time, and you're dumb enough to walk around continuing to identify yourself with that party, you're not only a chump but you're a traitor to your race. [applause]

What kind of alibi do come up with? They try and pass the buck to the Dixiecrats. Now, back during the days when you were blind, deaf and dumb, ignorant, politically immature, naturally you went along with that. But today, as your eyes come open, and you develop political maturity, you're able to see and think for yourself, and you can see that a Dixiecrat is nothing but a Democrat – in disguise. [applause]

You look at the structure of the government that controls this country, is controlled by 16 senatorial committees and 20 congressional committees. Of the 16 senatorial committees that run the government, 10 of them are in the hands of southern segregationists. Of the 20 congressional committees that run the government, 12 of them are in the hands of southern segregationists. And they're going to tell you and me that the South lost the war? [laughter, applause]

You, today, are in the hands of a government of segregationists. Racists, white supremacists, who belong to the Democratic party but disguise themselves as Dixiecrats. A Dixiecrat is nothing but a Democrat. Whoever runs the Democrats is also the father of the Dixiecrats. And the father of all of them is sitting in the White House. [applause] I say, and I'll say it again, you got a president who's nothing but a southern segregationist [applause] from the state of Texas. They'll lynch in Texas as quick as they'll lynch you in Mississippi. Only in Texas they lynch you with a Texas accent, in Mississippi they lynch you with a Mississippi accent. [cheering]

The first thing the cracker does when he comes in power, he takes all the Negro leaders and invites them for coffee. To show that he's all right. And those Uncle Toms can't pass up the coffee. [laughter, applause] They come away from the coffee table telling you and me that this man is all right [laughter]. 'Cause he's from the South and since he's from the South he can deal with the South. Look at the logic that they're using. What about Eastland? He's from the South. Why not make him the president? If Johnson is a good man 'cause he's from Texas, and being from Texas will enable him to deal with the South, Eastland can deal with the South better than Johnson! [laughter, applause]

Oh, I say you been misled. You been had. You been took. [laughter, applause] I was in Washington a couple of weeks ago while the senators were filibustering and I noticed in the back of the Senate a huge map, and on this map it showed the distribution of Negroes in America. And surprisingly, the same senators that were involved in the filibuster were from the states where there were the most Negroes. Why were they filibustering the civil rights legislation? Because the civil rights legislation is supposed to guarantee boarding rights to Negroes from those states. And those senators from those states know that if the Negroes in those states can vote, those senators are down the drain. [applause] The representatives of those states go down the drain.

And in the Constitution of this country it has a stipulation, wherein, whenever the rights, the voting rights of people in a certain district are violated, then the representative who's from that particular district, according to the Constitution, is supposed to be expelled from the Congress. Now, if this particular aspect of the Constitution was enforced, why, you wouldn't have a cracker in Washington, D.C. [applause]

But what would happen? When you expel the Dixiecrat, you're expelling the Democrat. When you destroy the power of the Dixiecrat, you are destroying the power of the Democratic Party. So how in the world can the Democratic Party in the South actually side with you, in sincerity, when all of its power is based in the South?

These Northern Democrats are in cahoots with the southern Democrats. [applause] They're playing a giant con game, a political con game. You know how it goes. One of 'em comes to you and make believe he's for you. And he's in cahoots with the other one that's not for you. Why? Because neither one of 'em is for you. But they got to make you go with one of 'em or the other.

So this is a con game, and this is what they've been doing with you and me all of these years. First thing, Johnson got off the plane when he become president, he ask, "Where's Dickey?" You know who Dickey is? Dickey is old southern cracker Richard Russell. Lookie here! Yes, Lyndon B. Johnson's best friend is the one who is a head, who's heading the forces that are filibustering civil rights legislation. You tell me how in the hell is he going to be Johnson's best friend? [applause] How can Johnson be his friend and your friend too? No, that man is too tricky. Especially if his friend is still ol' Dickey. [laughter, applause]

Whenever the Negroes keep the Democrats in power they're keeping the Dixiecrats in power. This is true! A vote for a Democrat is nothing but a vote for a Dixiecrat. I know you don't like me saying that. I'm not the kind of person who come here to say what you like. I'm going to tell you the truth whether you like it or not. [applause]

12-13-2017 , 02:40 PM

#79487

amplify

Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 78,255

12-13-2017 , 02:41 PM

#79488

bahbahmickey

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 15,278

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoraciousReader

We're not talking about pockets. We're talking about people. Real people working their asses off with nothing substantial to show for it. We should be prioritizing making their lives better, or why the **** do we CARE about the economy? You seem to be missing the point that Rising. Stock. Price. Is. Not. An. End. In. And. Of. Itself.

"Taking money away from people who on average buy more stuff to give to those who sell more stuff doesn't equal growth. It never has and it never will."

I am with you. We need to take care of the working class and that is why I support cutting corporate taxes, getting rid of MW laws and getting rid of obamacare. We need to create an environment where companies have to compete for labor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokiri

But if we’re cutting corporate taxes, we have to:
- raise other taxes
- cut government spending
- increase the debt

No free lunches.

And if we choose 2) then recognise that that has, just like the tax cuts, knock on effects. Spending cuts are cuts to people’s incomes, cuts to companies’ business income, people losing healthcare, and so on.

Like most liberals you are assuming the economy doesn't react the way many economists predict it will from tax cuts on the rich and corporations.

12-13-2017 , 02:45 PM

#79489

Luckbox Inc

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 61,109

Louis Farrakhan has very similar ideas today. He was on Alex Jones sometime before the election last year and came just short of endorsing Trump.

https://www.infowars.com/louis-farra...ngel-or-devil/

12-13-2017 , 02:45 PM

#79490

bahbahmickey

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 15,278

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-enriched-rich

Bahbahmickey,

This is mostly what I am referring to when discussing wealth inequality and cronyism.

There is a school of thought that QE actually didn't work. Please read the following (it is much shorter than your link).

https://www.ftportfolios.com/Comment.../qe-didnt-work

12-13-2017 , 02:48 PM

#79491

bahbahmickey

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 15,278

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

bahbah, you're right - the wealthy don't need tax breaks

but there are many families who do need things like medicare, medicaid, social security, food stamps, etc - specifically because the wealthy DON'T allow their wealth to trickle down on its own

Higher taxes on the rich do not automatically equal higher tax revenues and that is my whole point. I think the families you speak of will be better off if we have lower taxes on both the middle class, rich and corporations.

The rich have no control if their wealth trickles down or not. There is nothing they can do with their money outside of burying it in their backyard that doesn't trickle down. If you don't believe me name a few and I'll explain who it helps.

12-13-2017 , 02:49 PM

#79492

amplify

Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 78,255

how about we take all the rich people's **** and hang them from trees

12-13-2017 , 03:27 PM

#79493

Luckbox Inc

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 61,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by amplify

how about we take all the rich people's **** and hang them from trees

What counts as rich for you? Just out of curiosity..

12-13-2017 , 03:28 PM

#79494

kokiri

ffermwr moch

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahbahmickey

Like most liberals you are assuming the economy doesn't react the way many economists predict it will from tax cuts on the rich and corporations.

I think we've laid out the territory fairly well - you think tax cuts to the well off will stimulate the economy through trickle down and entrepreneurship, right? My view is that this is a discredited idea, that there are more direct and effective ways to achieve the trickle down effect, that the costs you pay to fund the cuts are worse than any gain from them, and that the current economic environment does not want for corporate investment cash (something your link seems to agree with fwiw).

12-13-2017 , 03:43 PM

#79495

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahbahmickey

The rich have no control if their wealth trickles down or not. There is nothing they can do with their money outside of burying it in their backyard that doesn't trickle down.

What is it you imagine poor people would do with their additional wealth if some form of redistribution occurred?

12-13-2017 , 04:04 PM

#79496

amplify

Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 78,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

What counts as rich for you? Just out of curiosity..

I don't have a strict policy on this, we just go door to door and see how it plays out.

12-13-2017 , 04:04 PM

#79497

amplify

Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 78,255

but if you have a child named Blaize or Esme you're going up against the wall

12-13-2017 , 04:25 PM

#79498

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahbahmickey

Higher taxes on the rich do not automatically equal higher tax revenues and that is my whole point.

I can increase tax revenue by 1.4 trillion by canceling this tax cut.

12-13-2017 , 04:29 PM

#79499

filthyvermin

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 60,146

Quote:

Originally Posted by tappokone

i don't know the specifics of how the legislation of civil rights was passed. so i'm not even sure if he was wrong about civil rights. but it's clear to me that malcolm x was talking about a whole lot more than just civil rights here. he was talking about a political system where none of the politicians were interested in actually helping people. they were all in cahoots to help each other and their mega rich donors.

replace the word dixiecrats with republicans, and he could still make the same speech today.

do you need a long list of how obama totally screwed black people and poor people after campaigning on promises of helping them? or clinton before him

12-13-2017 , 04:49 PM

#79500

VoraciousReader

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 34,276

Quote:

do you need a long list of how obama totally screwed black people and poor people after campaigning on promises of helping them? or clinton before him

Thank you for kindly offering. Make the list. For Obama. Specifically on screwing black/poor people. Since you specified "long" I assume there will be at least 10 items?

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