They care about promoting the idea that the climate is deteriorating. I've never once argued that they actually care about the environment.

They want carbon taxes. They want to control economies. It isn't about the environment for them.

Civil rights is not something the white supremacist establishment wanted. But the movement was too strong an inevitable to totally stop. So instead they take over the movement so they can guide its progress rather than people like Malcolm X.

And what do you get from that? A public school system that is more segregated today than it was before Brown v Board

The amount that the oil companies have spent vs the amount that governments have spent researching climate change is a drop in the bucket. It is a billion dollar a year industry ffs.

They don’t want anything of those things. But they are willing to make small concessions to avoid making more extreme ones. And the best way to do it is to make it seem like those small concessions are you idea to begin with

And all the findings and suggestions of said research have been almost totally ignored

I mean ffs the UN just released a report that basically said we are screwed unless we get rid of capitalism. You think that is an establishment narrative? You think the establishment is about to abolish capitalism?

How did this movement start? With a plucky band of scientists or with massive media coverage?

So then why do you think the UN is promoting this idea? How much money is spent every year promoting the dangers of climate change and studying climate change?

Again it's billions. Why? Why would they spend billions and do nothing at the same time?

More or less btw it is what they want. Capitalism implies a certain amount of freedom. What they want is more akin to Feudalism. Less competition that way.

I don't agree with her lefto politics but I love that new Michigan congresslady saying "Let's impeach the mother****er." That's just awesome. I wish all politicians talked as clearly and frankly about things!

What is the UN supposed to do, specifically? They can't just force governments like the US, China, Russia, etc. to do anything.

It's a complicated question that assumes a lot. You have to assume that they actually do want to do something other than just spend a bunch of money. Birdman seems to think that they do not, and I think that I want to disagree although it isn't easy to and it would be easy to argue that the object is simply to just spend a bunch of money without end.

So perhaps whatever AOC envisions would be some radical thing that threatens the elites. My argument has been that they certainly aren't afraid of the rhetoric as they have been the ones fueling it.

Again the whole idea that it is the oil companies vs the world when it comes to climate change when the same people that own the oil companies are the same people controlling the governments and institutions that spend billions every year to fight climate change... is what I'm arguing against.

Just keep believing the TV. It's working out well.

Birdman and/or Luckbox:

Thoughts on the shutdown? (How long it will last, how it will end, who is to blame...)

Biggest debate recently from the Democratic leaning posters in the Politics forum was whether it would be worth it for the Democrats to start offering big things for the wall, e.g. citizenship for Dreamers or Medicare for All.

This is utter nonsense. And it also plainly ignores the facts. The UN wasn’t calling for a return to feudalism so your idea that the UN was acting in the interests of the establishment in this case is obviously wrong

You have chosen to take the most inconsequential part of anything that I said and attack it and ignore everything else.

Is it your argument here that global warming is so serious that even the UN is calling on the abolition of capitalism?

I think it's a lot of theater but I don't know about the end result. I don't imagine it lasts too much longer though.

Why do you think that? I really don't see a resolution here. They seem just as far apart today as they were before Christmas.

Well if Trump is considering using emergency funds which seems to be the case, there won't be any justification on his part for continuing the shutdown if he does so.

Isn’t it like a super tiny portion of the government that is actually shut down?

I don't see that surviving the courts.

I wouldn't call it "super tiny".

For example, our transportation network could get completely ****ed very soon if the air traffic controllers decide to stop working. Also the FAA engineers doing maintenance and repairs aren't being paid right now.

https://www.businessinsider.com/delt...hutdown-2019-1

Glad I'm flying out of Montreal next week.

but they aren't entirely "the same people", are they?

even if they're in the same general category ("elites"), elites can differ and, among them, some can possibly be genuinely philanthropic, no?

Birdman, how much (or little) does AOC's "green new deal" align with the priorities demanded by the UN's report?