POG Politics Thread - Page 584 - Puzzles and Other Games Forum

And that's where we disagree, because other people's behaviors are strongly impacted by observation, even if that interaction doesn't change the behavior or beliefs of the person you're directly talking to.

It is not a coincidence that there's been a significant spike in actual physical, shall we call it "intolerance" as the thoughts behind that behavior have become more acceptable in the current political climate.

11-30-2018 , 05:27 PM

#14578

DWetzel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Did you use to call things "gay"? I did. I don't anymore.

And it's not because people started shouting "homophobe" at me.

What do we as a society do about the people who have this explained to them and keep calling things "gay" anyway? Just... let 'em?

11-30-2018 , 05:27 PM

#14579

Crossnerd

quite smart as well

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 39,556

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

your company

#blessed

11-30-2018 , 05:30 PM

#14580

DWetzel

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And in XNs case, I would gently suggest that there have been any number of Step 1 through Step 37 conversations in this thread and a million others, and using her as an example of "starting off" there is a pretty poor effort on your part IANAWW

11-30-2018 , 05:32 PM

#14581

DWetzel

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If every single time someone uses the word "gay" we tell them to stop using that word, and they use it 25 times a day, are we "screaming" at them if we tell them to stop 25 times a day?

11-30-2018 , 05:35 PM

#14582

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

at that point you aren't communicating with the offending person, you are communicating with bystanders, bystanders who (presumably, we agree) are able/willing to listen to reason and/or don't have deplorable values and who are not likely to be influenced by you meeting (questionable, in their view, per our scenario) repugnance with your righteous indignation (the accuracy of which, again, per our scenario, they are not sold)

11-30-2018 , 05:40 PM

#14583

DWetzel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

at that point you aren't communicating with the offending person, you are communicating with bystanders, bystanders who (presumably, we agree) are able/willing to listen to reason and/or don't have deplorable values and who are not likely to be influenced by you meeting (questionable, in their view, per our scenario) repugnance with your righteous indignation (the accuracy of which, again, per our scenario, they are not sold)

The bolded is something I would in fact disagree with

I kind of reject offhand the assertion/implication in your argument that these hypothetical bystanders are suddenly arriving at this problem for the first time in their lives and having to reason it out on the basis of which of these two people seems more reasonable.

11-30-2018 , 05:42 PM

#14584

iamnotawerewolf

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either people are persuadable or they aren't, man. pick a position.

11-30-2018 , 05:46 PM

#14585

kokiri

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

I have a vivid memory of being at a football game as a kid, and the guy next to me calling the black players gorillas and me, too young to know what racism was but not liking he was mocking my favourite players (john Barnes, Luther blissett) making monkey noises at him and saying 'no you're the gorilla' every time he was jeering at them. I asked my dad about this last weekend and he has zero recollection of it whatsoever. He's old and all, but I think your kid getting into a row with a football stand racist would probably mke a mark, so I'm wondering if I imagined it.

11-30-2018 , 05:48 PM

#14586

DWetzel

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Perhaps it's the "listen to reason" part I'm most specifically concerned with and object to. There are (unfortunately, perhaps, but realistically) other means or persuasion.

I'd sort of suggest that people who were capable of listening to reason would not already be in the position of wondering whether it's good or bad, they'd be among the voices speaking.

The more interesting question perhaps is how do you motivate people who know racism is at its core wrong to do and/or say something about it? Say your average Trump/Republican voter who "just cares about the economy"?

11-30-2018 , 05:51 PM

#14587

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

What do we as a society do about the people who have this explained to them and keep calling things "gay" anyway? Just... let 'em?

this particular ship has sailed, but there was a time at which it hadn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

If every single time someone uses the word "gay" we tell them to stop using that word, and they use it 25 times a day, are we "screaming" at them if we tell them to stop 25 times a day?

you would be wasting your breath at any volume

11-30-2018 , 05:52 PM

#14588

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

can you cite one? probably not worth the effort, but please forgive me if I'm not persuaded by an unsubstantiated factual assertion

11-30-2018 , 05:56 PM

#14589

DWetzel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

can you cite one? probably not worth the effort, but please forgive me if I'm not persuaded by an unsubstantiated factual assertion

she probably can easier than I can

11-30-2018 , 06:00 PM

#14590

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

If they "just care about the economy", they don't really care about racism.

Milton Friedman argued that racism is bad for the economy, and it turns out people don't really care about the economy first and foremost.

The solution is to get people to identify with [subject of offensive term/remark/belief/policy] and to show them how said [term/etc] is actually harmful. If they haven't changed, you have failed to do one of these.

11-30-2018 , 06:01 PM

#14591

DWetzel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

this particular ship has sailed, but there was a time at which it hadn't

Highly unlikely that this is correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

you would be wasting your breath at any volume

Other than very marginal opportunity cost (we don't exactly have a ton of allegedly persuadable racists standing in line here), so what? It's my breath.

It seems like you're awfully hung up on what appears to be, according to your argument, a neutral-EV activity. (Again, I reject any concept that these would ever ever ever ever make someone say "well gosh darn it they are being so mean I want to be racist just to stick it to them".)

11-30-2018 , 06:01 PM

#14592

biggerboat

you're gonna need one

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 48,486

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

The more interesting question perhaps is how do you motivate people who know racism is at its core wrong to do and/or say something about it? Say your average Trump/Republican voter who "just cares about the economy"?

I don't have a good answer but my guess is there is a substantial portion of these people who's ideology is that government should only provide economic stability, defense, and possibly infrastructure. They are fundamentally opposed to the government doing anything else. This includes social issues but goes as far as things like social security, medicare, etc.

I have a beef with people on both sides that put ideology over common sense and solving problems. Kinda relevant to our current discussion?

11-30-2018 , 06:02 PM

#14593

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

she probably can easier than I can

I'll invite you to reconsider your position founded thereupon until otherwise

11-30-2018 , 06:04 PM

#14594

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by biggerboat

do you think such a camp would agree that staying out of social issues includes pushing the needle in either direction?

11-30-2018 , 06:07 PM

#14595

biggerboat

you're gonna need one

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

do you think such a camp would agree that staying out of social issues includes pushing the needle in either direction?

Not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if they realize that doing nothing actually means doing something?

11-30-2018 , 06:13 PM

#14596

iamnotawerewolf

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I actually don't understand the question either, because things like "economic stability, defense, and possibly infrastructure" are imo indistinguishable from things like "social security, medicare, etc."

I can't think of a "social issue" that doesn't somehow implicate economic or political stability

11-30-2018 , 06:14 PM

#14597

DWetzel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by biggerboat

I don't have a good answer but my guess is there is a substantial portion of these people who's ideology is that government should only provide economic stability, defense, and possibly infrastructure. They are fundamentally opposed to the government doing anything else. This includes social issues but goes as far as things like social security, medicare, etc.

Right... this is sort of what I'm getting at though. From my POV, if someone believes that:

institutional racism is "not their problem" and/or not something government is designed to solve, and

they are actively pursuing political ends designed to prevent using government to solve those problems (because they think it's a waste of taxes/etc/whatever), and

they have been presented with the alternatives (I'm making an assumption here, but a safe one)...

haven't we already gone through the first X number of steps of persuasion? Am I the one that has drawn the line in the sand, or are they?

11-30-2018 , 06:15 PM

#14598

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

I reject any concept that these would ever ever ever ever make someone say "well gosh darn it they are being so mean I want to be racist just to stick it to them".

no, you make someone say "wow that guy is being a total jerk, I'm not going to listen to anything he has to say"

when, ironically, you being a jerk is intended to have that exact effect on the person you're being a jerk to

11-30-2018 , 06:17 PM

#14599

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

no, you haven't gone through the steps

because it is their problem, and it is something government is designed to solve

11-30-2018 , 06:20 PM

#14600

DWetzel

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it rather seems like we're going around in circles here

do you believe that each individual person has to go through step 1, step 2, step ... 93 -- and then when those doesn't work, the next individual person has to start again at step 1?

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