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Old 09-14-2018, 04:47 PM   #8701
filthyvermin
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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This news may not have reached the rock that you live under, but the Democrats haven't had much control over this country lately. The official GOP platform for the past decade has amounted to little more than doing the exact opposite of everything that Obama tries to do. Obama raised fuel economy standards substantially. Obama spent tons of money on mass transit projects so people wouldn't drive as much in the first place. Obama tried to force states to substantially lower pollution from their power plants, and Republicans threw the kitchen sink at him to try to stop the regulations from taking effect. (Trump promised to undo them, of course.) And at the state level you have things like bans on single-use plastic bags.

This isn't intended to be a complete list, either. For example, Republicans in Congress tried repeatedly to repeal regulations requiring increased light bulb efficiency.
i remember obama opening up offshore oil drilling. i think it was right after deepwater horizon too. of course i could be wrong.

but obama was in the pockets of oil and gas companies.

did he spend tons of money on mass transit? i think he spent 29 trillion on bank bailouts. i think he spent Xtrillion on imperial wars of aggression
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:48 PM   #8702
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Re: POG Politics Thread

But I probably could have summed everything up much more quickly and easily by saying that (in an ideological argument by assertion) I believe communism leads inevitably to authoritarianism because I believe that the underlying power dynamics theorized in a true communist government cannot and will not function indefinitely or even semi-indefinitely and that the harms of the inevitable authoritarianism far outweigh any theoretical benefits from the communist economic system
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:49 PM   #8703
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Re: POG Politics Thread

capitalism is doing a pretty good job of leading to authoritarianism
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:50 PM   #8704
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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maybe i shouldn't have been so glib herbie. i actually do have a point that is worth considering. we are the beneficiaries of liberal capitalism. our views have to be colored by that.

lots of people have been and are currently being exploited/killed so we can live our lives the way we do.
I don’t disagree with you, but I also don’t draw the same conclusions that you do as a result.

I am in full agreement that we are currently relatively “too capitalist” and what you say here is a big part of why
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:53 PM   #8705
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by soah View Post
This news may not have reached the rock that you live under, but the Democrats haven't had much control over this country lately. The official GOP platform for the past decade has amounted to little more than doing the exact opposite of everything that Obama tries to do. Obama raised fuel economy standards substantially. Obama spent tons of money on mass transit projects so people wouldn't drive as much in the first place. Obama tried to force states to substantially lower pollution from their power plants, and Republicans threw the kitchen sink at him to try to stop the regulations from taking effect. (Trump promised to undo them, of course.) And at the state level you have things like bans on single-use plastic bags.

This isn't intended to be a complete list, either. For example, Republicans in Congress tried repeatedly to repeal regulations requiring increased light bulb efficiency.

see also:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...al-plants.html
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:54 PM   #8706
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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capitalism is doing a pretty good job of leading to authoritarianism
So this again is not exactly wrong, and another big part of the reason I don’t see our current capitalist system as having a viable path forward

That said - one of the main features of capitalism is that there is a countervailing force present in our current system (big business) which can theoretically counter a truly authoritarian government. It would be interesting in an “OMG the world is ending” kind of way to see what would happen in a situation where those two interests were put genuinely and violently at odds
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:55 PM   #8707
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Re: POG Politics Thread

And the lack of that countervailing force in a communist system is a big part of why I say it leads inevitably to authoritarianism
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:02 PM   #8708
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Re: POG Politics Thread

The thread always gets interesting when I have no time for it. Although I'm totally enjoying herbie going from "I'm not really going to participate here" to writing short essays
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:08 PM   #8709
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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let's see how complicated the question is.....


birdman, are you anti war? do you support withdrawing all usa troops from the middle east?
yes
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:11 PM   #8710
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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The thread always gets interesting when I have no time for it. Although I'm totally enjoying herbie going from "I'm not really going to participate here" to writing short essays
Lol - standard, not role dependent obviously
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:16 PM   #8711
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Birdman I appear to have misinterpreted what you were asking me. I told you that I think your conclusions are myopic and off base and you asked why. When I answered many of your critiques started with saying that my point was either ideological or argument by assertion, which is not really a critique of what I’m saying because the large majority of it was my opinion complete with a healthy chunk of my ideology and bias. I wasn’t attempting to, nor do I have any desire to undertake, a technical point by point academic debate of all of those things and the biases and ideology and facts that undergird them, because it would take forever and accomplish nothing. In large part this is because communism as an academic exercise is largely without the kinds of glaring logical flaws and inconsistencies that most of the systems of government that I think actually work better all possess. Libertarianism shares the same flaw/feature here. If you genuinely believe that the real world results of communist governments have worked out better than the real world results of “liberal democratic capitalist” governments then ok, but you will never convince me of that.
lol is there where I give you the speech about you not being concerned with the advancement of truth?
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:19 PM   #8712
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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one of the main features of capitalism is that there is a countervailing force present in our current system (big business) which can theoretically counter a truly authoritarian government
lol, dawg, in capitalism it is the big businesses that represent the authority
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:22 PM   #8713
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Herbie I think one mistake you are making is a poor understanding of what the government/state are. The state exists as a tool of class dictatorship--one class over the other. In the case of capitalism, it is dictatorship of the bourgeoisie over the proletariat. It is nonsensical to say that big business would be a "counter" to the state. The state is a tool of the businesses, which themselves are tools of the bourgeoisie.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:24 PM   #8714
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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And the lack of that countervailing force in a communist system is a big part of why I say it leads inevitably to authoritarianism
whoa.... you think big business is a countervailing force to authoritarian govt?

i thought our govt was there to protect us from big business, not the other way around.

i'm sure birdman can post about countervailing forces in communism way better than i can. he can probably think of one or two that are better than big business

plus i gotta go now and make some money and contribute to usa global empire!

and a genuine welcome to the thread herbie
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:24 PM   #8715
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Also, I want to further challenge you idea of "authoritarianism" because I think it has no practical application the way you are using it. The reason I said some of what you have been saying is ideological is because your views spring out of ideas that have been put in your head from years of Western education and propaganda. Your idea of "authoritarianism" is one that has been given to you for a specific reason. The alternative would be to develop your ideas from reality. For instance, the idea that businesses would somehow prevent authoritarianism is totally divorced from the reality of our society, and, more to the point, your concept of authority is such that you would have difficulty ever characterizing reality in an accurate fashion.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:28 PM   #8716
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Re: POG Politics Thread

You might give this a gander, Herbie:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar.../authority.htm
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:03 PM   #8717
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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The alternative would be to develop your ideas from reality. For instance, the idea that businesses would somehow prevent authoritarianism is totally divorced from the reality of our society, and, more to the point, your concept of authority is such that you would have difficulty ever characterizing reality in an accurate fashion.
This is where I get to say that the above is ideological and arguing by assertion, and also manages to be incredibly insulting to boot.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:06 PM   #8718
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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lol is there where I give you the speech about you not being concerned with the advancement of truth?
Being able to logically show that something should be true is different than seeing and understanding what actually happens. Sometimes the two don’t match, and insisting that only the former is “truth” is wrong
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:10 PM   #8719
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Re: POG Politics Thread

I should also note that in general I enjoy discussions like this considerably more when you label your opinions as your opinions instead of as statements of incontrovertible fact. The fact that I disagree with you but don’t care to take days of my life researching and countering your arguments means nothing except that I don’t care to do that. It’s not a worthwhile investment of my time or effort to do it. That doesn’t mean that I’ve somehow been brainwashed or lack your depth of understanding of the situation. It also doesn’t mean the opposite, but I’m not really saying it does
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:48 PM   #8720
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Re: POG Politics Thread

It's helpful to define key terms.


It's more helpful to stick with those definitons.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:56 PM   #8721
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
You might give this a gander, Herbie:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar.../authority.htm
That article goes from "there's always some measure of authority, so authority itself cannot be evil" to "resisting total authority is evil".

What is it with Marxists' total inability to grasp gradation?
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:57 PM   #8722
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Too Platonic, I guess
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:02 PM   #8723
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Birdman do you enjoy having such a negative view about absolutely everything
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:08 PM   #8724
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Birdman do you enjoy having such a negative view about absolutely everything
no
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:01 PM   #8725
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Being able to logically show that something should be true is different than seeing and understanding what actually happens. Sometimes the two don’t match, and insisting that only the former is “truth” is wrong
I'm mainly talking about the fact that you ignored like 3/4ths of my post because a few times I said you were being ideological. Did you read the rest of it?
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