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Old 08-17-2018, 02:07 PM   #6201
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Re: POG Politics Thread

obviously there are disincentives to doing bad things that don’t involve going to prison so people itt should stop acting like that is a reasonable argument for keeping prisons
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:13 PM   #6202
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Dwetzel is correct - you cannot construct an alternative to prisons that simultaneously accomplishes rehablitation, incapacitation, and deterrence without arriving merely at prison reform.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:13 PM   #6203
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Re: POG Politics Thread

actually, I guess you can lop off body parts
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:18 PM   #6204
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
Dwetzel is correct - you cannot construct an alternative to prisons that simultaneously accomplishes rehablitation, incapacitation, and deterrence without arriving merely at prison reform.
Those are just things you asserted were needed. I donít accept the premise.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:19 PM   #6205
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Social pressure already is deterrence. If doing a bad thing makes people not like you that offers quite a bit a deterrence.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:23 PM   #6206
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Re: POG Politics Thread

re: theft - I've been doing this for several years now, and not ONCE has my client been arrested solely for stealing food; there is almost always electronics, beauty products, and/or clothing involved

re: drugs - I believe that most drugs should be either decriminalized or legalized/regulated, but that doesn't mean that there would be no more drug-crime. You are going to have people abusing the drugs and doing some bad **** in the process. I have had several clients who are the nicest people in the world until they have a couple drinks of alcohol - which turns them into terrifying monsters; alcohol is of course legal/regulated. See also: DUI.

re: drug rehab - you absolutely, positively, have to want to stop using, or it is never going to work. Ask any person who has ever worked at a rehab facility or had any kind of relationship with a drug addict. And it is no answer to say "well let's make people not want to use to begin with" - drugs are really, really fun (until they aren't), and people have serious foresight issues.


re: violence - there are people that get a serious kick out of hurting others; there are people that see hurting others as a path to power; there are people that lack impulse control; there are people who mis-perceive situations. To suggest that therapy can end all violence is ludicrous.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:24 PM   #6207
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Some people don't care about being liked so that is ridiculous
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:25 PM   #6208
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
Social pressure already is deterrence. If doing a bad thing makes people not like you that offers quite a bit a deterrence.
because there isn't status quo social pressure not to do bad things?
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:28 PM   #6209
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Iamnot makes a good point

We all agree i assume that people that are gay or straight

Do we think people are born pedophiles?
Are some people born to kill?
Can that be rehabilitated?

And no im not saying gay is bad and should be rehabilitated so don't twist my words

Im just saying that people can be born with predispositions
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:28 PM   #6210
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Re: POG Politics Thread

somehow, Birdman has this pollyanna view of human nature, despite his dismal interpretations of human interaction
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #6211
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan View Post
Some people don't care about being liked so that is ridiculous
Some people donít care about being imprissoned.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #6212
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
people can be born with predispositions
and apart from natural (in-born) predispositions, an individual's social development casts that individual's psyche

suggesting radical changes to the "structure" implies that individuals' psychological molds can simply be recast, despite decades of feedback reinforcement
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #6213
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
because there isn't status quo social pressure not to do bad things?
What did you think the word ďalreadyĒ meant in my post?
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:35 PM   #6214
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
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suggesting radical changes to the "structure" implies that individuals' psychological molds can simply be recast, despite decades of feedback reinforcement
Show me where you think someone suggested this?
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:35 PM   #6215
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Everyone is correct
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:42 PM   #6216
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
What did you think the word “already” meant in my post?
idk

it looked like you were arguing that "social pressure" was a significant enough deterrent that incarceration was not necessary to accomplish that end?
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:44 PM   #6217
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
suggesting radical changes to the "structure" implies that individuals' psychological molds can simply be recast, despite decades of feedback reinforcement
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
Show me where you think someone suggested this?
:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
If there are people that truly "do not want to rehab" it is a very small group caused by one of two things

1) some other structural issue with society as a whole

2) an underlying mental health issue

The first one can obviously be addressed by fixing the structural issue. The second one is a whole separate issue from what we are talking about that would be handled by mental health programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossnerd View Post
Birdman is right ^
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
uh, no, he's not

plenty of people simply enjoy doing what they do - drugs, violence, theft
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsball8806 View Post
Pretty sure he will argue that this falls under point (1)- that there is an underlying problem with society
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Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
Yeah this too
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:45 PM   #6218
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687 View Post
obviously there are disincentives to doing bad things that donít involve going to prison so people itt should stop acting like that is a reasonable argument for keeping prisons
go on...
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:48 PM   #6219
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Maybe I misunderstood you, IANAW, but my point is that over the long term you can slowly address issues through structural changes. I don’t see the prison abolition process as doing anything overnight, and certainly not suddenly change how society acts. That might take several generations
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:49 PM   #6220
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
idk

it looked like you were arguing that "social pressure" was a significant enough deterrent that incarceration was not necessary to accomplish that end?
As much as “deterrence” is necessary to deal with “crime”, I think enough can be provided without needing to resort to imprisonment.

I think having social cohesion is something most people strive for, and losing that is enough (beyond just not wanting to be an ******* for conscience sake) to deter people.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:50 PM   #6221
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Re: POG Politics Thread

why did you come down so hard on my record expungement suggestion?

wouldn't that be a positive step towards structural reformation?
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:51 PM   #6222
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
why did you come down so hard on my record expungement suggestion?

wouldn't that be a positive step towards structural reformation?
Sure. Iím not against it. I just do not think it would have as big an effect as you seemed to suggest.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:54 PM   #6223
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Re: POG Politics Thread

pretty sure social pressure/common decency, and the understanding that it's beneficial for us all to get along are FAR AND AWAY the biggest deterrents to bad behavior.

if we were all in a room in together, the reasons we wouldn't physically attack each other have nothing(very little) to do with prison.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:57 PM   #6224
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by filthyvermin View Post
pretty sure social pressure/common decency, and the understanding that it's beneficial for us all to get along are FAR AND AWAY the biggest deterrents to bad behavior.

if we were all in a room in together, the reasons we wouldn't physically attack each other have nothing(very little) to do with prison.
Probably correct, though it's important to note that there are quite a few people (a minority to be sure) for whom that doesn't apply

So what do we do about them?

It's not like we can do like in the old days and just exile them to uninhabited islands.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:58 PM   #6225
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by filthyvermin View Post
pretty sure social pressure/common decency, and the understanding that it's beneficial for us all to get along are FAR AND AWAY the biggest deterrents to bad behavior.

if we were all in a room in together, the reasons we wouldn't physically attack each other have nothing(very little) to do with prison.
we have positive expectations of ourselves and each other
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