POG Politics Thread - Page 212 - Puzzles and Other Games Forum

Even if you are limiting your analysis to aggregate effects and ignoring the obvious fact that one policy explicitly controls behavior while the other does not, the two are still not very comparable. For example, the one child policy had a dramatic impact on the ratio of males to females in China. There are no similar outcomes associated with legalized abortion.

I'm not so sure. I'd imagine that a much higher percentage of abortions are of poor/minorities then of the more affluent.

08-07-2018 , 11:21 AM

#5278

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by master3004

Requiring that somebody reproduce who does not want to reproduce is controlling reproduction.

What do I win?

Reproduction taking place at birth is a dubious scientific proposition. I don't think anyone is requiring reproduction. What the pro-life advocates are arguing is that women carry through with the reproduction that has already taken place.

08-07-2018 , 11:31 AM

#5279

DWetzel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

I'm not so sure. I'd imagine that a much higher percentage of abortions are of poor/minorities then of the more affluent.

why imagine when you could google

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...bort_more.html

Quote:

One of the peculiar facts the Brookings Institution pulls out is that the abortion rate is higher for the highest income bracket they looked at, which was 400 percent of the poverty rate. Single women who make $47,000 or more a year abort 32 percent of their pregnancies, whereas single women making $11,670 a year or less abort only 8.6 percent of their pregnancies. Women in the middle abort 11 percent of their pregnancies. That may seem hard to square with data from the Guttmacher Institute that shows that the majority of abortions are obtained by women living in or near poverty: Nearly 70 percent of abortions are for women who make 200 percent or less of the federal poverty line.

How can it be true that middle-class single women abort nearly one-third of their pregnancies, but lower-income women, who abort a smaller percentage of their pregnancies, still make up most of patients sitting in abortion clinic waiting rooms on any given day? The answer is simple: Lower-income single women get pregnant way more often. Way more often. The Brookings Institution found that single women at or below the federal poverty line were three times as likely to get pregnant in a given year than middle-class single women. That's because lower-income women were twice as likely to have had unprotected sex.

08-07-2018 , 11:42 AM

#5280

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DWetzel

why imagine when you could google

Imagination keeps us young at heart.

08-07-2018 , 11:48 AM

#5281

pwnsall

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The individual is the most discriminated against class. Least able to organize.

08-07-2018 , 11:49 AM

#5282

pwnsall

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Reproduction taking place at birth was a good line.

08-07-2018 , 12:04 PM

#5283

kokiri

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Give it up, Luckbox.

08-07-2018 , 04:58 PM

#5284

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

LB, you are using a general concept, "control", and misascribing agency

at best (assuming you do allow that women/blacks/poors have the capacity to determine their own best course of conduct), you are equating the permission for a population to control itself with the control of a population by a separate entity

You would not blame individual drug users for the drug epidemic. We blame the cia for bringing in cocaine and we blame for the pharmaceutical companies for creating the opiad epidemic. And this is despite drug use being an individual choice. It still exists by design from powerful forces who have profit motive (amongst others) and the history of legalized abortion is little different. This doesn't mean that any individual drug user is simply a goldfish who doesn't have their own agency, but things that apply to populations don't necessarily have to apply to individuals within that population.

08-07-2018 , 05:22 PM

#5285

kokiri

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08-07-2018 , 05:26 PM

#5286

iamnotawerewolf

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the first abortion is always free

08-07-2018 , 05:30 PM

#5287

Luckbox Inc

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Kokiri has some strange opposition to this topic which can only be due to deep seated Freudian issues

08-07-2018 , 05:32 PM

#5288

iamnotawerewolf

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still waiting on your consideration of contraceptives in this context, LB

08-07-2018 , 05:35 PM

#5289

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

still waiting on your consideration of contraceptives in this context, LB

What's to consider? They are literally called birth control. I'm not sure how they are relevant to anything. I think the fact that we call them birth control goes to my point though.

08-07-2018 , 05:38 PM

#5290

iamnotawerewolf

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do you see any difference, in terms of "population control", between legalized abortion and legalized contraception?

in principle, I mean - not statistically

08-07-2018 , 05:48 PM

#5291

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

do you see any difference, in terms of "population control", between legalized abortion and legalized contraception?

in principle, I mean - not statistically

It's an interesting question that I'll have to think about some. I think the Catholic church of old would have considered them the same but I'm not sure. Probably not.

08-07-2018 , 06:19 PM

#5292

VoraciousReader

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

What's to consider? They are literally called birth control. I'm not sure how they are relevant to anything. I think the fact that we call them birth control goes to my point though.

1. Access to contraception dramatically lowers abortion rates. If you oppose abortion, you should be pro-contraception.

2. Access to medical care for their pregnancies lowers the rate at which women choose abortion. If you oppose abortion you should be pro health care for all...or at least pro health care for all pregnant women.

3. If you oppose abortion and aren't pro either of those things, than the only conclusion I can draw is that you oppose women having sex. Talk about control.

08-07-2018 , 06:36 PM

#5293

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VoraciousReader

Fwiw I'm not opposed to abortion. I just think that the argument that those who are want to 'control the means of reproduction' is hopelessly flawed both semantically and factually. I agree that contraception is a better alternative.

08-07-2018 , 06:40 PM

#5294

well named

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I thought the phrase was mostly meant to be evocative, but your conception of "control" seems far more flawed than whatever rough edges the analogy between production and reproduction might have.

08-07-2018 , 06:43 PM

#5295

master3004

Revisionist Historian

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Well sure, if you're a ****ing nit of the highest order

08-07-2018 , 06:55 PM

#5296

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

I thought the phrase was mostly meant to be evocative, but your conception of "control" seems far more flawed than whatever rough edges the analogy between production and reproduction might have.

I'm fine saying that there are different varieties of control on both sides.

08-07-2018 , 07:06 PM

#5297

filthyvermin

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

it's a ridiculous thing to argue about. people's need for abortions is a zillion times more important than who wants to "control" reproduction more

we all agree that individuals want to control their own reproduction, especially women and their own wombs.

we all agree that pro choice people, generally speaking, are not arguing "you have to get an abortion". they aren't trying to control anyone else's reproduction for them.

we all agree pro lifers are arguing "you can not get an abortion". they are trying to control other people's reproduction choices

08-07-2018 , 07:28 PM

#5298

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by filthyvermin

we all agree pro lifers are arguing "you can not get an abortion". they are trying to control other people's reproduction choicesright to have an abortion

Ok. Good post. I agree.