Filthy voting for someone he believes in because democracy is not arguing voting is irrelevant. You’re making things up.

I haven’t, and sounds like something I should know. Thanks, I’ll look into it.

I mean surely there is some effect of voter participation dropping. Like I think if this country had <10% voter participation that would be something. Not sure if that is exactly something I care about.

If you want to win concessions from the bourgeoisie (that is not my goal, as you know. Mine is to completely eliminate all the bourgeoisie's power), as seems to be the goal of most in this thread, the way you do that is by them thinking they don't have any other choice. We aren't outnumbered, just out organized. The bourgeoisie make concessions when they are worried that failure to do so will lead to strikes, civil unrest, all out revolution, etc. Having low voter turnout is a harbinger to stuff like that and it would spur concessions.

Maybe Filthy does think voting is irrelevant, but that’s not the stance he took in the previous discussion. In fact, I probably believe he thinks that as you know him well. It just isn’t what he’s saying.

you know the Democrats supported genocide in yemen right? Madeline Albright believed that the US starving half a million Iraqi children to death was worth it for the non-existant WMDs that the CIA made up (not even sure how starving half a million kids does anything for WMDs even if they somehow existed)

I mean what line is left to cross?

I think filthy believes similar to what I just posted, which is that by voting for one of the two major parties you are consenting to their governance but that by not voting or voting third party you can eventually force them to make concessions.

What concessions have been forced upon them over the last 20 years or so?

I like the thought that Rock the vote was a bougie initiative

I think a lot of people would accept voting is a mechanism for legitimizing government.

has voter participation dropped a lot in the past 20 years?

No, and I'm not sure what this has to do with my question.

this. bird probably usually explains my thoughts better than i do.

chim is right in that it is standing up to corruption to vote for la riva, BUT it's such a small tiny stance. i mean you can literally see my one vote counted against the 130 million votes for the establishment. and la riva might get 987,689 votes instead of 987,688. so it's not like i'd be che over here.

but it's the exact same when voting for trump or biden or clinton or obama or bush.

isn't that like arguing "you voted for clinton last time. what did that get you?"

I've voted for a major candidate for President once in my life (Bush 2000, lol me). As noted, I've voted a Dem for major office once ever. So, I fully get and support voting who you prefer.

Biden isn't just a bad and evil vote, though. I work at a Hispanic Serving Institution (min. 25% Hispanic student population) and have significant portion of family who is Mexican. Their lives are materially worse than they were four years ago. Our DACA/DREAMer students are considerably worse off than they were for a ton of reasons. I've had to counsel my students through fear of deportation, go through trainings to resist ICE from entering my classrooms, help them find work, etc. (Don't but Obama deportation me, I didn't vote for him).

Many people close to me would rate their mental and physical health significantly worse than 4 years ago. My cousins have dealt with real overt racism for the first time (fortunate, to be sure). Been told to go get on the other side of Trump's wall, etc. These people feel hated and that they have no value because of the current administration.

Look, Biden sucks, wish it wasn't how it was. I've seen first hand the impact this administration has had on so many lives, I refuse to not vote against it.

I get everyone always says you have to pick the lesser of two evils, I've never done that. Until now. I couldn't live with myself voting in a way that could help this continue.

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I'm sure you'll all have tons of "well it won't matter, system is too big, you aren't really changing, Biden is evil, look at foreign policy, voting record" - fine, whatever. I've made commitments to people whose lives are much worse than they were in 2016, and I plan to honor those commitments.

Chim maybe could vote being in Colorado although realistically it's a blue state now. If Trump didn't win in 2016 he won't win now. Arguing with Filthy is absurd-- nobody in California needs to vote. And Birdman doesn't even get a vote. VR doesn't need to vote.
Biggerboat can vote and I'm registered in Arizona so if it comes down to one vote there I'll take the blame. But ultimately even if you believe that votes matter-- they still don't. Any Californian who goes to the polls voting is doing it as a feel good exercise.

I'm *not* arguing voting matters.

I'm arguing the line of "You are just capitulating, I'm so much better because I'm telling them to f off!" is stupid and naive to why people may choose to do the things they do.

edit: I am arguing it's ridiculous to think voting a third party matters any more than voting Biden, though.

Depending on how monolithic you view democratic party having lots of Mayors in terrible policing cities seems like a more direct reason to be skeptical.

I agree with you mostly and incidentally 2000 was the only time I ever voted (for Gore).
I don't not vote now as a protest thinking that that will bring about change. I don't vote because I don't want to waste my time in what I consider to be a pointless gesture. I'm willing to concede that the system is partially set up to make voting be a pointless gesture and to discourage it. But that's sort of a catch-22 there.

It's hard to support violent overthrow knowing that if it happened it would just end up being coöpted (or more likely directed by) the exact people we'd be trying to overthrow in the first place. People are too manipulated and divided for it to work. Trump was the overthrow-- who was voted by the conservatives thinking they were going to drain the swamp. That didn't work out. So how are "both sides" now going to get together to do anything that doesn't result in something more like civil war? People are too divided and manipulated for it to work.
But as far as politicians go...I don't know if there have been any good presidents. Not Kennedy. Not Carter-- none of our lifetimes. Maybe Eisenhower wasn't part of the club and was put in because he could win and be controlled? Idk. Perhaps there were losing candidates somewhere that were fighting the good fight. But I don't know who.
But yeah...anybody can come to live with me with the Wounaan assuming they'll let me. That's my plan for when the violent overthrow starts.

As a D.C. resident, I'm here for the fight over whose vote matters the least

Bbc les mis is on Amazon prime. Feel like the story of France from 1780-18xx is one I don't know enough about.

Les Mis takes place in 1832 amidst the June Rebellion and really has nothing to do with the French Revolution

But if you have the time you should listen to the Revolutions podcast, season 3 is on the main French revolution and there are separate seasons on 19th century French revolutions

If you want your vote to count you'll have move to the United States first.

I never mentioned the French revolution!

Also the beginning is like ten years before. The book and musical are quite different. This follows the book.

Fair enough, I mostly just wanted to plug Revolutions because it is the GOAT podcast and covers the French revolution, 1815, 1830, 1832, 1848 and the Commune

Thanks! I'm intrigued and will check it out.

This starts off with the defeat of napoleon but I feel like all those events have to be connected. And a lot happened in only ~50 years.

That sounds good, I'll check that out. Always looking for good history podcasts. I listened to Donald Kagan's entire Yale course on ancient Greece last year on Youtube, like 25 hours or so. He's a real pistol btw, and the father of notorious neocon Robert Kagan.