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01-28-2019 , 12:03 AM

#15351

Birdman10687

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“I agree that literally everything about what the US at its client states are doing in VZ is absurd. But at the same time I’m glad they are doing it”

01-28-2019 , 12:04 AM

#15352

Birdman10687

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Typical American

01-28-2019 , 12:05 AM

#15353

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Dustin I can’t beleive you of all people can see like everyone bourgeois government in West jump at the chance to “recognize” a right wing leader in the global south and you don’t see that the whole thing is a sham.

I understand your point. Obviously they don't care really care about Venezuela and they are using the crisis as a pretext to push for a new government.

But the thing is is that there really is a crisis and Venezuela does need a new government.

01-28-2019 , 12:06 AM

#15354

Birdman10687

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If Venezuelans want a new President they can vote for one. It’s not America’s job to anti-democratically tell them who their President is against their electorates wishes.

Like honestly wtf

01-28-2019 , 12:07 AM

#15355

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

You don’t understand my point. You are full of ****. They created the crisis, Dustin! There will always be a “humanitarian crisis” in whatever country the US decides needs coup-ing at the moment. That is how the system ****ing works.

01-28-2019 , 12:10 AM

#15356

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

If Venezuelans want a new President they can vote for one. It’s not America’s job to anti-democratically tell them who their President is against their electorates wishes.

Like honestly wtf

I don't know a lot about the intricacies of what occurred in the previous election. My understanding is that the opposition candidates were blocked from running. And it is somewhat interesting for you to be preaching about the sanctity of democracy because you know how easily that is manipulated.

01-28-2019 , 12:11 AM

#15357

Birdman10687

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governments opposed to US business interests will always be accused of using chemical
Weapons, or possess weapons of mass destruction, or be presiding over a “humanitarian crisis”, etc etc. That is always how it works. Come on.

Whatever line you set as the like when intervention becomes justified, the US media machine will make sure either you beleive it’s been crossed or create the circumstances themselves through external manipulation. That is how it ****ing works

01-28-2019 , 12:12 AM

#15358

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

My understanding is that the opposition candidates were blocked from running.

This is a bald faced lie

01-28-2019 , 12:17 AM

#15359

Birdman10687

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Maduro called an election and invited international observers to monitor the election. The opposition candidates rejected the international observers. Then when it was clear they weren’t going to win the US pressured the opposition candidates to withdraw from the election and call it a farce. International observers have since ruled it valid

01-28-2019 , 12:18 AM

#15360

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

You realize that I spent three months in Colombia last year and saw homeless Venezuelans on the streets of most every big city I went to (especially Cali). So this isn't a US media machine thing.

Last edited by Luckbox Inc; 01-28-2019 at 12:29 AM.

01-28-2019 , 12:39 AM

#15361

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

You realize that I spent three months in Colombia last year and saw homeless Venezuelans on the streets of most every big city I went to (especially Cali). So this isn't a US media machine thing.

1) The idea that homeless people to you constitutes justification for the coup of a democratic leader is ridiculous considering you are an American

2) I am not saying the situation is ALWAYS a total fabrication of he American media machine. Just that they are often involved in embellishing, inflaming, exaggerating, and yes, sometimes even straight up lying if necessary. But as I said later, if the humanitarian crisis that the US needs does not exist or can't be fabricated the US will go about creating the crisis, as it has done to some extent in VZ.

01-28-2019 , 01:02 AM

#15362

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

How sure are you that this narrative is correct?

01-28-2019 , 01:08 AM

#15363

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

It’s not America’s job to anti-democratically tell them who their President is against their electorates wishes.

ask Leopoldo López or Villca Fernández

Quote:

The government has been repressing dissent through often-violent crackdowns on street protests, jailing opponents, and prosecuting civilians in military courts. It has also stripped power from the opposition-led legislature.

Quote:

The Venezuelan government has jailed political opponents and disqualified them from running for office. At time of writing, more than 340 political prisoners were languishing in Venezuelan prisons or intelligence services headquarters, according to the Penal Forum, a Venezuelan network of pro-bono criminal defense lawyers.

In mid-2017, the Supreme Court sentenced five opposition mayors, after summary proceedings that violated international norms of due process, to 15 months in prison and disqualified them from running for office.

01-28-2019 , 01:17 AM

#15364

Birdman10687

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So what is your point, IANAW. That you are saying the US should just pick who they think should be the President of VZ or what? I feel like you have not made your position clear.

01-28-2019 , 01:18 AM

#15365

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

How sure are you that this narrative is correct?

I'm speaking off memory from stuff that happened a while ago but I'm relatively certain of my high level recounting of events. I would be lying if I said I follow Venezuelan politics like a hawk.

Last edited by Birdman10687; 01-28-2019 at 01:26 AM.

01-28-2019 , 09:40 AM

#15366

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

So what is your point, IANAW. That you are saying the US should just pick who they think should be the President of VZ or what? I feel like you have not made your position clear.

Morally, I'd be happy for my government to help the people of VZ reclaim their own popular autonomy.

Pragmatically, I'd prefer less political instability in my general vicinity.

01-28-2019 , 10:25 AM

#15367

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Morally, I'd be happy for my government to help the people of VZ reclaim their own popular autonomy.

This is a funny way to say you support an imperialist coup

01-28-2019 , 10:34 AM

#15368

iamnotawerewolf

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How is what I described "imperialist"?

In no way did I condone any degree of subjugation, fealty, or vassalage.

01-28-2019 , 01:10 PM

#15369

kokiri

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

This is a funny way to say you support an imperialist coup

Is there any such thing as humanitarian intervention, iyo, BM?

What was the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan? China and Tibet?

01-28-2019 , 01:16 PM

#15370

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kokiri

What was the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan? China and Tibet?

Is this when I accuse you of whataboutism?

01-28-2019 , 01:18 PM

#15371

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kokiri

Is there any such thing as humanitarian intervention, iyo, BM?

This is when we get into idealism instead of sticking with materialism.

Sure, of course someone could theoretically construct a scenario where one made up country could intervene for humanitarian reasons in another made up country that has a made up humanitarian crisis going on.

But I gather that is not what you are asking?

01-28-2019 , 01:19 PM

#15372

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

How is what I described "imperialist"?

We are talking about what is happening right now between the US and VZ, which is an imperialist coup. I asked if you supported it.

01-28-2019 , 01:22 PM

#15373

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Can you acknowledge that there is a real crisis that exists separately from any and all preconceived notions?

01-28-2019 , 01:39 PM

#15374

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Can you acknowledge that there is a real crisis that exists separately from any and all preconceived notions?

Define “crisis”

01-28-2019 , 01:42 PM

#15375

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Define “crisis”

In this case it is extreme poverty caused by a barely functioning economy.

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