There do exist marxist feminists, some of whom are women of color and some of whom do seem to generally share birdman's view of the political process. I'm not sure I could find any quotes of any of them saying that the parties are the same, but you'll find some of them agreeing with the premise that the only way to overcome sexism/misogyny is to overthrow capitalism, or favoring more radical political movements. Note that I don't think that saying such people exists settles any argument.

As an example of a feminist of color who is both anti-capitalist and interesting to read: I'd suggest bell hooks, who writes on the intersection of race, gender, and class. Her views are certainly informed by Marxism, although I'm not actually sure if she identifies as Marxist specifically. She is perhaps a bit more nuanced than birdman in this thread.

You said the gop and the dems govern the same 99% of the time.

oh, how could i forget abby martin?! i love her. she's one of my favorites. she'd probably die before she voted dem

Right, I reread the beginning of the argument and it was Birdman saying theres no difference, and then Herbie saying what about abortion, and then Birdman was like oh okay theres abortion, BUT THATS IT!

Sorry, I'm just going to ignore **** like that.

I've read feminist writing re capitalism/sexism, and I agree with a great deal of it. That being said, we are not to the point where we have the equity to not vote. That's ****ing ridiculous, and saying theres no difference between who we're voting for is also ****ing ridiculous.

Thanks for the reading rec, WN

Going on a boat soon, need to stock up.

Open to suggestions from you too, Bird.

In no way do I find it compelling or even coherent to argue that if both parties agree on 99% of stuff and all that stuff is bad and that the 1% of disagreement is the least important stuff (none of which I agree with, but even so) that it isn’t worth voting for the side where you agree with the last 1% over the side where you disagree with it

Also - with all of your talk about capitalism needing to end and the horrible nature of US military interventionism it doesn’t change the fact that if you don’t vote for democrats over republicans it isn’t actually about changing any of that stuff (because refusing to vote for democrats in no way changes that stuff) it’s about making yourself feel better about not “supporting” that stuff at the cost of things you claim to care about that impact real people in negative ways. Anything you may or may not be doing to advance your goals in other areas in no way changes that fact

Of course you don’t feel included, crossnerd. Most white women in the US aren’t victims of imperialsim, but instead actually benefit from it. You are a landlord, ffs. And you are surprised when don’t feel included when I talk about imperialism?

aren't you arguing against yourself saying i have to vote for democrats?

if my vote counts, then i use my vote to support gloria la riva. and that is important because my vote counts.

if my vote doesn't count, then it doesn't matter who i vote for, or even if i vote at all

And I don’t specifically believe it is a “male” perspective so much as it is a selfish perspective regardless of whether the person espousing it is male, female, white, POC, or any other category you may think of, because it is putting your own feelings about what you do ahead of the tangible struggles of others

I addressed this in detail during the part you didn’t read

Anything by Angela Davis

The Dialectic of Sex by Shulamith Firestone

Caliban and the Witch by Silvia Federici

Means of Reproduction by Michelle Goldberg

^^all suggestions I would make for radical feminism

i've linked this malcom x speech "you're a chump" a zillion times. but maybe herbie has never heard it.

it's only 3 minutes. it's coherent and compelling argument about how awful democrats are, and voting for them is terrible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkgA2rUAY-o

This is a very metsy response, well done

so many examples of feminists who hate democrats. my memory is just terrible and i couldn't think of them

emma goldman is another awesome one

I lol'ed

That’s not how the argument went actually. The post that kicked off the entire discussion was me saying that on abortion, the two parties are different. Then Herbie responded to that post

Well when you say something as ridiculous as “I don’t feel included in discussions about the evils of imperialsim” you should expect an equally ridiculous response

that's a low blow!

I mean... putting your own feelings about what you do ahead of the tangible struggles of others is quite possibly the most male thing ever, but fine, we coo

No, I said I don't feel like you include me in them

People ask for nuance from me but then whenever I am nuanced they express my thoughts in a completely reductive and inaccurate manner that has none of the nuance I originally provided.

I get where you’re coming from, but the problem with labeling it as a problem because it’s a male perspective means that it’s not a problem when women espouse it, which it still is. Calling it a selfish perspective (albeit one that has a disproportionate impact on women) eliminates that puerile objection

Because you aren’t a victim of it? This is like the whitest thing anyone has ever said in this thread

White person living in the imperial core feels excluded in discussions about how the US ****s up the third world

that's one of the good sources of amusement for me in this thread

it would be a great troll, but i don't think anyone is smart/motivated enough to do it just to troll you

maybe pwns, but i guess he deaththreated his way out of the thread