POG Politics Thread - Page 239 - Puzzles and Other Games Forum

I would say that the gop has moved in my direction over the last 10 years from being completely pro-establishment to something that is slightly different than that. It isn't me parroting the gop but rather the gop moving in more of the right direction.

I would have always thought that hope would have came from the Democrats but they are awful and Kucinch can't save them.

08-15-2018 , 08:55 PM

#5952

pwnsall

CFBBPC

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 65,637

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyebooger

Every Luckbox post here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...hread-1704474/

No. Why would you say that?

Well you said the "other side" so....

Alright now compare those posts to the GOP platform!

08-15-2018 , 09:58 PM

#5953

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 58,714

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Other than immigration and (to some extent) gay rights, I honestly don't notice that much of a difference between the GOP policies of 10-20 years ago and today.

What policies are different?

08-15-2018 , 10:14 PM

#5954

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by eyebooger

Other than immigration and (to some extent) gay rights, I honestly don't notice that much of a difference between the GOP policies of 10-20 years ago and today.

What policies are different?

Foreign policy under Trump is I think rather different than we would be seeing under a more traditional gop president. The rapprochement with Russia in particular I don't think we'd be seeing under Romney/McCain. I also don't think we'd see the US pull out of the TPP under either of them or the pressure that Trump is applying to China on trade.

You could easily argue that these things are Trump specific and that once Trump is gone they will go away, but I do believe that it is what the base wants and politicians will need to move in that direction if they want to stay in office.

08-15-2018 , 10:27 PM

#5955

Luckbox Inc

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It used to basically be the case that Democrats and Republicans differed on domestic policy but foreign policy was the same for both parties (free trade, regime change/permanent war, anti russia) and now there are actual foreign policy differences and I think the gop base understands this and wants them.

08-15-2018 , 10:43 PM

#5956

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloobird

Reported antisemitic incidents were up by nearly 60% in the first year of Trump's presidency.

Do you think that's unrelated to neo-nazi and white supremacist groups feeling more emboldened by Trump?

I think there is definitely a correlation.

Trump not denouncing them strongly is definitely a part of it

Trump won't denounce people that helped elect him

I do wish he would

But it would be unfair to blame trump for these acts

08-15-2018 , 10:57 PM

#5957

metsandfinsfan

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Agree with luckbox

Trump spends like an old school democrat
Foreign policy way different than most Republicans are 5 years ago

08-16-2018 , 01:19 AM

#5958

Crossnerd

quite smart as well

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 39,556

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

But she couldn't vote trump either so she wrote in Oprah

08-16-2018 , 02:18 AM

#5959

Bloobird

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Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Not sure I follow the last sentence there.

You accept this is being aggravated by easily avoidable things Trump is doing but it'd be unfair to blame him for it because...what? Because he's got no self control? Because it's OK to care more that people say nice things about you than what encouraging those people might lead to? This all seems like exactly the sort of thing you should blame Trump for, even if you're saying "I think it's worth it".

Genuinely interested in your thought process, appreciate you do seem to be engaging in good faith here.

08-16-2018 , 07:47 AM

#5960

metsandfinsfan

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I don't think obama did enough to condemn violencein ferguson and baltimore and black people continued to feel empowered under obama

But do we blame the violence on obama?

08-16-2018 , 07:53 AM

#5961

metsandfinsfan

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5. Race Relations

Former President Obama will occupy a place in history as the nation's first African-American president. But while his election would seem to signal that American society has overcome its past history of racial discrimination and tension, Americans' views of race relations in fact became far less harmonious during Obama's tenure in office.

In 2010, slightly more than one in 10 Americans said they worried about race relations "a great deal" (13%). By 2016, 35% of Americans said they worried about race relations, following a number of high-profile cases involving police officers shooting unarmed black men and several instances of white police officers being targeted by blacks.

More Americans over the past eight years came to believe that Obama's election and his presidency made race relations "worse" in the U.S. rather than better, with 46% believing the former in 2016 and 29% saying the latter. This represented a sharp reversal of opinion from 2009, when 41% of Americans believed Obama's election and presidency made race relations better and 22% said worse.

Relatedly, Americans became less certain about whether Obama's presidency in and of itself represented "one of the most important advances" for black Americans. In 2009, 71% of blacks and 56% of whites thought this; by 2016, the figure had fallen to 51% for blacks and 27% for whites.

Bottom Line: Many spoke of Obama's election ushering in a new "post-racial" period in America. But as even Obama himself admitted in his farewell address, this has not been the case. If anything, his presidency appears to have illuminated the previously hidden fault lines that still exist in U.S. race relations.

That is from gallup

But i won't blame Obama for the riots and race relations beimg worse per se

08-16-2018 , 08:05 AM

#5962

Crossnerd

quite smart as well

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 39,556

Obama stirred up racism with his skin color.

Trump stirs up racism with his words.

How are you not able to parse the very article you posted when compared to your own analogy re who to blame...

08-16-2018 , 08:12 AM

#5963

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloobird

Lol "I appreciate you seem to be engaging in good faith here" followed immediately by two posts of whataboutism.

08-16-2018 , 08:26 AM

#5964

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 58,714

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

You're right about trade. That one escaped my mind at the time. I do think that one is Trump specific and the GOP base is either too powerless or spineless to stop it.

I don't think the foreign policy (especially as it regards to military/war) has changed much at all with Trump, either with rhetoric or actions.

08-16-2018 , 08:27 AM

#5965

Bloobird

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Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

I don't think obama did enough to condemn violencein ferguson and baltimore and black people continued to feel empowered under obama

But do we blame the violence on obama?

To be clear, you're comparing empowerment of black people with empowerment of neonazis?

08-16-2018 , 08:38 AM

#5966

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloobird

To be clear, you're comparing empowerment of black people with empowerment of neonazis?

No way, he's arguing in good faith here.

08-16-2018 , 08:44 AM

#5967

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloobird

To be clear, you're comparing empowerment of black people with empowerment of neonazis?

I'm comparing condemning violence and the president doing something to curb it

Neither did

08-16-2018 , 08:46 AM

#5968

metsandfinsfan

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That doesn't make them equivalent

But it's silly to place blame

Beavis and butthead sent responsible for kids burning down houses either

08-16-2018 , 08:54 AM

#5969

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

I'm comparing condemning violence and the president doing something to curb it

Neither did

"Whenever those of us who are concerned about fairness in the criminal justice system attack police officers, you are doing a disservice to the cause," Obama said, calling violence against police a "reprehensible" crime that needs to be prosecuted.

08-16-2018 , 08:57 AM

#5970

kokiri

ffermwr moch

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 52,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

I don't think obama did enough to condemn violencein ferguson and baltimore and black people continued to feel empowered under obama

But do we blame the violence on obama?

Trump: neo nazis == Obama: African Americans.

Is that the parallel you’re making? I’m not sure it’s necessarily proving what you want it to.

Last edited by kokiri; 08-16-2018 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Delayed equine.

08-16-2018 , 09:04 AM

#5971

metsandfinsfan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kokiri

Trump: neo nazis == Obama: African Americans.

Is that the parallel you’re making? I’m not sure it’s necessarily proving what you want it to.

The violence is inexcusable and should have been condemned

The reasons don't have to be morally equivalent

That's the problem

You're sayimg because a cop killed someone the president shouldn't have condemned riotimg killing and looting that occured because it was justified?

You are the ones beimg disingenuous

I'm not trying to equate nazi's and black people

I'm equating a president not condemning violence enough so a group feels entitled to commit it

But of course I'm not allowed to do that without beimg a racist

And then you accuse me of not arguing on good faith

Ridiculous

08-16-2018 , 09:04 AM

#5972

metsandfinsfan

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You are so self nonaware

08-16-2018 , 09:08 AM

#5973

iamnotawerewolf

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scroll up, Mets

08-16-2018 , 09:15 AM

#5974

iamnotawerewolf

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also, there's a big difference between (arguendo) failing to condemn and actually encouraging

Trump has, at least since becoming president, embarked on a campaign routinely to dehumanize illegal immigrants

when self-proclaimed neonazi's say that Trump is finally a president representing their views or doing the right thing - do you see BLM protesters saying Obama is doing the right thing? no, BLM protesters complained that Obama wasn't doing enough (or anything) about the police brutality problem

08-16-2018 , 09:16 AM

#5975

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 58,714

Obama on Ferguson:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.600caad6e72a

Quote:

I also just spoke with Governor Jay Nixon of Missouri. I expressed my concern over the violent turn that events have taken on the ground, and underscored that now’s the time for all of us to reflect on what’s happened and to find a way to come together going forward. He is going to be traveling to Ferguson. He is a good man and a fine governor, and I’m confident that working together, he’s going to be able to communicate his desire to make sure that justice is done and his desire to make sure that public safety is maintained in an appropriate way.

Of course, it’s important to remember how this started. We lost a young man, Michael Brown, in heartbreaking and tragic circumstances. He was 18 years old, and his family will never hold Michael in their arms again. And when something like this happens, the local authorities, including the police, have a responsibility to be open and transparent about how they are investigating that death and how they are protecting the people in their communities. There is never an excuse for violence against police or for those who would use this tragedy as a cover for vandalism or looting. There’s also no excuse for police to use excessive force against peaceful protests or to throw protesters in jail for lawfully exercising their First Amendment rights. And here in the United States of America, police should not be bullying or arresting journalists who are just trying to do their jobs and report to the American people on what they see on the ground.

Put simply, we all need to hold ourselves to a high standard, particularly those of us in positions of authority. I know that emotions are raw right now in Ferguson and there are certainly passionate differences about what has happened. There are going to be different accounts of how this tragedy occurred. There are going to be differences in terms of what needs to happen going forward. That’s part of our democracy. But let’s remember that we’re all part of one American family. We are united in common values, and that includes belief in equality under the law, basic respect for public order and the right to peaceful public protest, a reverence for the dignity of every single man, woman and child among us, and the need for accountability when it comes to our government.

So now is the time for healing. Now is the time for peace and calm on the streets of Ferguson. Now is the time for an open and transparent process to see that justice is done. And I’ve asked that the attorney general and the U.S. attorney on the scene continue to work with local officials to move that process forward. They will be reporting to me in the coming days about what’s being done to make sure that happens.

And three months later after the grand jury decision:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.eea19c3d158b

Quote:

As all of you know, a few minutes ago, the grand jury deliberating the death of Michael Brown issued its decision. It’s now come that either way was going to be subject of intense disagreement, not only in Ferguson but across America. So, I just want to say a few words suggesting how we might move forward.

First and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law. And so, we need to accept that this decision was the grand jury’s to make. There are Americans who agree with it, and there are Americans who are deeply disappointed, even angry. It’s an understandable reaction.

But I join Michael’s parents in asking anyone who protests this decision to do so peacefully. Let me repeat Michael’s father’s words, “Hurting others or destroying property is not the answer. No matter what the grand jury decides, I do not want my son’s death to be in vain. I want it to lead to incredible change, positive change, change that makes the St. Louis region better for everyone.”

Michael Brown’s parents have lost more than anyone. We should be honoring their wishes.

I also appeal to the law enforcement officials in Ferguson and the region to show care and restraint in managing peaceful protests that may occur. Understand, our police officers put their lives on the line for us every single day. They’ve got a tough job to do to maintain public safety and hold accountable those who break the law.

As they do their jobs in the coming days, they need to work with the community, not against the community, to distinguish the handful of people who may use the grand jury’s decision as an excuse for violence. Distinguish them from the vast majority who just want their voices heard around legitimate issues in terms of how communities and law enforcement interact.

Finally, we need to recognize that the situation in Ferguson speaks to broader challenges that we still face as a nation. The fact is in too many parts of this country a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. Some of this is the result of the legacy of racial discrimination in this country. And this is tragic because nobody needs good policing more than poor communities with higher crime rates.

Quote:

We have made enormous progress in race relations over the course of the past several decades. I’ve witnessed that in my own life, and to deny that progress I think is to deny America’s capacity for change.

But what is also true is that there are still problems and communities of color aren’t just making these problems up. Separating that from this particular decision, there are issues in which the law too often feels as if it is being applied in a discriminatory fashion. I don’t think that’s the norm. I don’t think that’s true for the majority of communities or the vast majority of law enforcement officials.

But these are real issues. And we have to lift them up and not deny them or try to tamp them down. What we need to do is understand them and figure out how do we make more progress. And that can be done.

That won’t be done by throwing bottles. That won’t be done by smashing car windows. That won’t be done by using this as an excuse to vandalize property. And it certainly won’t be done by hurting anybody.

So, to those in Ferguson, there are ways of channeling your concerns constructively, and there are ways of channeling your concerns destructively. Michael Brown’s parents understand what it means to be constructive. The vast majority of peaceful protesters, they understand it as well. Those of you who are watching tonight understand that there’s never an excuse for violence, particularly when there are a lot of people in good will out there who are willing to work on these issues.

On the other hand, those who are only interested in focusing on the violence and just want the problem to go away need to recognize that we do have work to do here and we shouldn’t try to paper it over. Whenever we do that, the anger may momentarily subside, but over time, it builds up and America isn’t everything that it could be.

And I am confident that if we focus our attention on the problem and we look at what has happened in communities around the country effectively, then we can make progress not just in Ferguson but in a lot of other cities and communities around the country.

This all seems perfectly reasonable to me. What's the problem?

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