I want to talk about the fanmail thing because I think the most important point is that in a game like this you have to keep going back and taking new information into account

At the time fanmail claimed I wasn’t sure if he was telling the truth or not, so I took it as tentative information subject to verification

Once he died as Karl Marx, I thought it was very likely to be true information because he had all the role PMs and we thought they hadn’t opened wolf chat yet, so it seemed likely he wasn’t just giving the village the information he was giving his teammates information that they needed about the fascists. This made it way more likely to be true

However, once bsball died we saw that wolfchat was open before Fanmail died so his information was only meant for the village, which immediately makes it very suspect again, but I don’t think a lot of people went back and re-evaluated given the new information

I don't know what would have changed from reevaluating fanmails info, for the village. We wouldn't have believed dmk and BATM that they were the end of the fascist team - and let's be honest, if we had, people would complain we were too gullible - and we kept aao in the poe in case we needed another fascist out

Well Fanmail was also sending the info to Tokyo!! So it was mostly true, would be hard for the village to parse out the true and verifiable information form the lies.

you can never believe the media!

Late to the party but that's cool UD/bird.
Puts a whole new spin on the last 13er that we all played together lol

Hypothetic: would it be considered against the rules for two wolves to talk about the game outside of wolf chat if they are in the same house?

It’s interesting you ask that because we made a point of only talking about the game in wolf chat but i wasn’t sure what the exact rules were

That would have been interesting.

And does it change anything if you're the last two wolves alive.

Aside, I've known wolves that have called other wolves to remember night actions / wake them up to use bugs etc etc. And often nothing says the format of the wolf chat.

And I was the third wolf with them, they didn't tell me and I had no clue lol

Generally speaking I don't think neutral(s)s should ever have 33% chance to win in mashes. Even in this game as one. And I'm completely fine with us having an estimate 8-10% equity as intended in the design here

But I think neutrals may have actually had close to 0% equity (unintended) because of the lack of cover roles when wolves had the entire role list

If we make up a fake cover role ourselves that is in the game:

- It's a villager's real role, we can get counterclaimed or immediately outed when that villager dies

- It's a wolf role, immediately outed to the wolf team in secret, later outed to the village when that wolf role dies

If we make up a cover role that isn't in the game:

- Immediately outed to the wolf team because our claimed role is not in the list of all roles given to the wolves

If we don't claim at all:

- POE'd by the wolf team as all the villagers continue to make claims (which is what happened to us here), POE'd as a likely neutral to villagers paying attention as wolves at least have some fake claims to make

Very true CQ, we actually assumed you had a list until someone pointed out that it wasn’t said specifically in the OP. Very challenging position to be in, and one where I actually think it would have been ok for the mods to bounce around claim ideas with you. How does everyone feel about how much mods should be allowed to encourage/support a team when an imbalance is realized?

For example, I thought pwns’s role was hilarious but didn’t play out as fun as on paper. I was wondering if it would be ok for a mod to step in and create a compromise. I thought mods could have altered the role to just move class unrest when pwns died. It’s an oops but I think it might have been more fair that way? What do other people think? Would that have been grossly unfair to communists? How would that have felt to the village?

Or is it just— the game has to run as it is designed and can’t be adjusted mid game?

this pretty much, although if marx dies before communists get wolf chat, it's a completely different situation

but if bsball had shot someone else and we had literally all of the roles, it would have been even worse

the most likely scenario though is probably marx and engels surviving until communists get chat on d4, which is still a nearly unwinnable prospect for fascists

in addition to the low equity, it's also largely based on something out of their hands and impossible for them to assess

I have tweaked midgame before. But not by helping a team to strategize. That is outside the bounds.

You have to be VERY VERY careful though because it's easy to tweak because one team runs really well or plays really well, and it's not always possible to distinguish good play and/or good luck from good design.

Like if Trump actually tries to win, it's a different game. The neutrals peek him n1, and then maybe they use their peeking power to find communists instead of teammates?

Wolfchat opened n1, which meant the team got 2/3 of the role pms right away. That created a big imbalance that the game was not designed for, but it took a really bold and gutsy play by Vig to pull it off. We can't punish him for brilliance by penalizing his team.

Even the argument that there were too many communists, which I think is probably fair is not completely apparent, when you consider that the fascists burned two kills on shortline (a liberal) and then had their kill hijacked and used on a player that was already dying, so three potential communist deaths were avoided.

Four if you count the second bsball lynch.

I keep debating the balance in this game in my head and I don't think we'll ever know, really, but I know that most people seemed like they had a total blast, so I think birdman and UD can call it a win.

So those are some of the problems with trying to adjust after the game is in play. Players have made plans. Players have made decisions based upon what they know or don't know. It can be done, but there has to be a pretty compelling reason.

balance schmalance

Hmm. This bodes well for the upcoming game.

ahahaha i didn't see this at first bc was on mobile. incredible

Hypothetically, the role secretly has no special powers and wins with the fascists until Trump dies and then can win with the liberals.

Also, so there really was no hirohito eh? dang

no hirohito, correct

Hirohito in our hearts, always and forever

We are all hirohito

I had missed the Mitch reveal. Thank you so much for reposting it.

some say hirohito is still out there, waiting to be found, to this very day