Reaperlicious shared his view. Then MB shared his view, which was that Reaperlicious's view was bad. And he is right.

I don't really see any argument here. Just a personal slight. Enjoy your 1 day break Birdman.

People are probably afraid to say what they really think about this, for pretty obvious reasons.

Because it's an offensive position

While I am not very invested in that competition andmy day would definitely not be ruined if everybody "forgot" to run Ms POG every year, I am nonetheless nonplussed that a green mod decided to create this topic.

It would be infinitely better if a non-mod who had an well-thought opinion on this topic (like Adam33 or Crossnerd) opened this topic. When people like them ask for it to be suspended and open a new topic about it, it feels one way.
When a green mod supports their opinion in a topic, it feels one way.

When that same green mod opens a topic about this it feels in a different way, because he has the actual power to make an executive decision about the topic he is inquiring about.

I wonder what does "test the waters" mean. Shut it down if he gets a slightly favourable general opinion?

Monkey, if no one else wrote anything after this one I am making, what would your decision be?

Edit: All in all, when you say, as a moderator, that you merely intend to test the waters, I do not trust you.

I've always considered Ms POG to be not a game and not a puzzle, just a piece of POG furniture that runs every year. It is like a mini Maxim Hot 100, Sports Illustrated issue. I feel I can safely guess there have been zero people that have developed any type of disorder from Ms POG. It is a thread that I have never cared about, or ever seriously participated in.

On that note, I feel Ms POG can stay, as is, and how it has always been run.

If you don't like it, use your energy to go fight Maxim Hot 100 or other contests that actually have an audience probably more worthy of the protection you are trying to provide.

Nobody is being stopped from running POG Person of the year.

As for the topic in question, I will first get the obvious, yet corrext "this contest does not break forum rules" out of the way.

Second, I think this is political correctness gone mad*. I do not believe that a female beauty contest suggests the idea that the only worthy quality of a woman is their beauty. Some might feel differently from me, which is perfectly defensible.

I think I understand the arguments people that oppose it have presented: they say that since for centuries women have been mostly viewed as mere objects, having such a contest today would continue to subtly suggest that idea for current generation.

I'd like to think that no one of us (I am speaking of POGgers here) views women as mere objects. I certainly don't.

Also, when I am speaking of political correctness gone mad, I am not speaking of Adam, Crossnerd and others presenting their objections. I am merely speaking of Monkey opening this topic, and only on that.

Kruze, I think we could note that Maxim is a men's magazine. If it's your belief this forum should be for men in the way Maxim is, fair enough.

UD, I have a picture of Richard Littlejohn going red in the face when I read your post, which was quite delicious, so I thank you. You say that no one sees women as merely an object, yet in the thread in question what else are you doing? Women "compete" one against the other and are judged purely as objects. I think you have the arguments against largely correct but your argument seems to be that because you otherwise think women are more than objects, you should be unmolested in treating them in that way in this forum?

Btw, I don't mind being "politically correct". I have three daughters. I'd like a world in which their self worth is not tied up in their looks any more than my own is. I consider that just correct, let alone politically.

I have no idea who Richard Littlejohn is but you made a bad tone read, because I am perfectly calm right now.

I think that judging anyone on a trait does not imply they have no worth outside that trait.

Like I already said, I understand why not everyone feels that way.
Like Sun Tzu said, they simply do not have to click, which is the same thing I do when I see zillions of topics in POG that do not interest me (sheep) or that actively annoy me (the penultimate game).

I am, of course, not blind to the fact that I do not feel the penultimate game and sheep threads attack my identity or how am I perceived.
Nevertheless, I think it is not the complainants' decision to make.

What they can do (and did) is to present their arguments against that specific game and try to convince people not to participate in the current version of it; I daresay that some people already did.

I think that you're doing something quite different now.

Not at all. I have absolutely no problem with Adam, Crossnerd or you voicing your opinion on the matter (I might have forgotten someone, but I think you 3 presented the most elaborate arguments on the matter).

I have a problem with you, specifically creating this topic. I think I have already explained why. Had Adam or Crossnerd created such a topic, I would have probably just avoided posting in it, or, at worst, I would have merely tried to explain my POV instead of going on a tirade.

Why shouldn't I create this topic? Aren't you one of the people who urges consultation and transparency? And am I not also a poster, like xn and Adam?

I am consulting you, UD. It's a policy decision for the forum. You are shaping the policy.

Yes, you are.

No, you aren't.

Apparently, you did not get what I was saying. As a green mod, you have the authority to issue subforum-specific policies that you believe are dictated by situation or need.

When you create such a topic -this is different than merely expressing your opinion, as is your right as 2+2 poster- you give the impression that you are at least considering terminating Ms POG for the following years and want to see why do you think of that (the fact that you are now talking about "policy decision" does little to assuage my concerns).

And, as I say, making such a decision would be -formally- within your rights as a mod but is something that should definitely not be your place to decide.
Because no matter what active posters say here, it should not be your decision.

Of course, I also think you are wrong when you say that I, as an active poster in this forum, should be shaping the policy.

There is no need for any policy. If the people who do not like Ms POG for what it currently is or hate it for what they think it stands for, they should convince active posters not to participate. This is what they've been doing, and that is the right way. You are doing this the wrong way.

As an aside, I just googled Littlejohn and he sounds like a complete *******. I, as you know, have no particular problems with people getting personal with me, but since you instituted a strict no-personal-attack policy in this thread, you should be the first to abide with it. Please do not give me an "if the shoe fits" reply.

What a silly post. Crossnerd opened discussion of this topic in the Miss POG nominations thread, and another forum member, ArcticKnight, requested that the discussion continue in another thread. Crossnerd concurred. The thread was created.

Does the person that created it have an opinion on the topic? Yes, but the thread was specifically created based on member feedback. Complaining that a green started it would be like complaining that someone requested to have their thread locked and MonkeyBanana locked it.

The truth is, of course, that Miss POG is unapologetically sexist and always has been. Your post makes me think that you don't want to defend it on that basis, so you decided to attack the OP of the thread.

I've campaigned enthusiastically in Miss POG in the past. I think beautiful women, as a gender, are on the whole better looking than beautiful men, and I can appreciate female beauty and sexiness, even as a straight female. That doesn't change the fact that if I'm honest, Miss POG is the forum equivalent of a wet t-shirt contest. As a woman, I avoid bars with wet t-shirt contests and would immediately leave if I accidentally entered one because 1) I would be horribly uncomfortable and 2) I think they feed into an atmosphere that is both hostile toward and dangerous to women.

Also, dismissing Crossnerd's real concerns as "political correctness gone mad" epitomizes everything I dislike about the anti-pc contingent. As Miss Manners says, attempting to avoid giving offense when interacting with others is merely minimal civility.

About 15 years ago, some people in our society decided that the more powerful people in our society being willfully rude and insensitive toward the less powerful people in our society was somehow appropriate, because attempting to display sensitivity toward the less powerful was "being politically correct." Those of us that see through the laughably transparent reframing that had to take place for this to happen keep patiently waiting for people to "get it", but so far society has let us down.

I think it's disappointing that some people not only brushed aside CN's concerns but then supported nominating a porn star. I can assure you of one thing: no woman is ever going to feel welcomed in a message board that chooses to represent itself a woman whose highest accomplishment is her gaping ******* and her wilingness to display it.

CN didn't ask to abolish Miss POG, she just asked for an expansion of the criteria...one that might lead to a Miss POG that all the members of the forum can be proud of. It certainly seems like a reasonable and overdue request to me...that is if you actually WANT women to participate in the forum. If what you want is a boys club, well, you're well on your way to having one.

It was just his catchphrase.

I'm not deciding anything. I'm asking you what you think.

Monkey don't put words in my mouth.

From the OP, it seemed you wanted the communities opinions on the topic. Not for you to reply and disagree, and have you pick apart every reply to fit your narrative.

How about let people state their opinions, and revisit the thread in a few days.

I doubt your opinion changes, but at least the thread won't be tainted by your interactions.

I am saying that someone else (for example, Crossnerd) should have created this topic. I would not have posted what I just did if she had. You are free not to believe me, of course.

I respectfully disagree with you and I still think a mod actually opening it has a different vibe.

You are more or less correct. I usually dislike discussing political or social issues on this forum. When Crossnerd more or less directly asked me why did I nominate a particular woman without specifying if she had other qualities other than her good looks, I just said something to the extent of "different opinions".

I would like to note, however, that I did not attack Crossnerd and I am attacking MB, and this is in spite of the fact that I actually like Monkey Banana and I do not really like Crossnerd.

I am not attacking his opinion, but the role I think he is playing right now.

Like I said before, I usually do not like talking about social issues, but since I've already started, let me ask you this. You yourself said that you have been an enthusiastic contributor to Ms POG in the past years.

Since you are writing this post now, it is safe to say that your views on the matter have evolved over time. Fair enough. However, I would be willing to bet real money that even at the time you were a Ms POG enthusiast, you would feel uncomfortable finding yourself in a bar that hosts wet t-shirts contest.

Which leads me to the point that these are two very different things (I would feel really uncomfortable seeing a wet t-shirt contest as well).

Actually, I was not dismissing her concern, because, as I already repeated several times, she never asked for a mod to police this contest, but only appealed to the posters for stopping to participate. I disagree with her arguments, but I do not think this is PC gone mad because she did not attempt to try telling us what we ought to do.

I think that Monkey, in opening this thread as a moderator, is trying to do that, because he is trying to see if there is enough player support from preventing this contest from happening. He is talking about "policy" and posters shaping it.

I am not sure you will agree with what I am saying, but I at least hope you were able to understand my POV now.

I didn't start this thread because I knew it would result it personal attacks on myself. Which happened even without me starting the thread, within the first 5 posts. Why should the onus be on me to constantly lead the charge? Its a concern for the entire community.

In the politics thread where this was being discussed prior to this thread being created, more than one mod lamented not wanting to start the thread either because it would invite criticism. I'm acquainted with that feeling, and sympathize.

I'm appreciative of MonkeyBanana for stepping up to the plate. I'm sure it wasn't a decision taken lightly.

Frankly, after the anorexic girl, the porn star, and kruze's dog were nominated, it was clear to me that many posters here find my concerns to be patently absurd. And seeing so many of you defend having this competition as a neutral position, or a moral one that varies person to person, even some of you I previously felt close to, I have no words.

VoraciousReader, you are an unimaginable gift. I thought I was alone. Thanks for showing up.

I will support whatever the women want in the thread.

Fine enough; someone else then.

Had you started the thread, I would not have attacked you (unless you consider what I just wrote as a personal attack). I did not do that in the MSPaint thread, either. And we had a fair share of harsh arguments in the past.

Yes, but what you're overlooking is that MB has an institutional role, and everything he says will always be looked at differently because of it.

I have always been extremely appreciative of VR's contribution to the forums. So when she implies that Ms POG is a competition is one of the factors that thinned her contributions in here, it is something that I cannot overlook.

However, right now, I am at the stage of "if we keep doing (thing) this cool poster will not be posting in here. That sucks. But I still do not understand why is there something inherently wrong with (thing)".

All I can say is I hadn't planned on posting here at all, or even reading Pog while Miss Pog was ongoing. With all the different polls, who knows how long that would be. After reading the responses in the nomination thread, I really don't know if I can continue to post here at all.

I only responded now in this thread because VR's post encouraged me.

So wait a second, changing opinions on smth is par for the course, but how do you go from not merely participating, but actually running this very game two years ago to saying that given the response to your request to stop running the game in the present format, you are unsure if you can keep posting here?

You do not think you are overreacting a bit? Very few people insulted you; most of the people that disagreed with you were not rude.

I have been one of the most, if not the most outspoken poster against unwarranted political correctness and against the pernicious influence of SJWs in our society. Everyone knows my views on this.

But it's also true that when it is warranted, when there is just cause, we should call out sexism when we see it. And it's hard to justify a group of grown men ogling at women in their underwear in 2017.

I mean ... isn't the internet and its amazing avenues for seeing whatever you want in your own privacy enough? You have to have a space on a public forum to come together and do it in communion too? Whichever way I look at it, it's hard to justify.

This is not a case of free speech, where someone is being banned from speaking their political views in a public place because illiberal people disagree with them. It's a case in which people are defending the right to continue an actively sexist practice and to hell with anyone who doesn't want that.

The reason that people should discontinue this isn't because it upsets Crossnerd or any other women (we cannot have rules based on people's feelings), it's because you should just have the sense to know that it's something that really belongs in the last century. We are meant to have made progress beyond this sort of thing.

I wouldn't want it banned, however, simply because a group of people are enforcing their will and values on everyone else, I'd want the group to come to a collective decision that doing this is not really something that in line with everyone's values. I do think it's generally not a bad thing for this conversation to take place.

I would support a situation in which the decision was made by a vote, rather than by decree one way or the other. And then, no matter what happens, at least people have had their chance to say their bit on it and whatever will be will be. It will be the will of the forum, not one set of people imposing values on another set (whichever way around). Let the vote happen, then respect the outcome and consequences. This is the only thing to do if you believe in either freedom or democracy.

I never ran the game. I did make a nomination thread once. I wish I hadn't. I wish I'd never participated in any of these.

I wish I'd never watched a beauty pageant. Or America's Next Top Model. I wish I'd never read Cosmo, or any of those articles on the DailyMail about how to show more sideboob like Khloe. I wish I'd never had a VIP Sephora card, and I wish I'd never wasted my hard earned money on overpriced uncomfortable lingerie from Victoria's Secret.

There are a lot of things I wish I hadn't done.

I'm awake now, and I'm not overreacting.

Apologies.

As for the rest, ok. I disagree with you and I do not think MsPOG is inherently demeaning to women, but I also think I understand your position.

If no one decides to run Ms POG next year, I definitely will not shed any tears over it, and I am certainly not going to run the thing myself. However, I also admit that the fact you are basically threathening to quit posting in POG just because you are not getting your way about something (of course, that something is a very important issue to you) kind of leaves me shrugging.

Not that it isn't your right to do so; social protest has aleays been a perfectly legitimate way of expression.

I am just telling you the impression your posts make on me; idk if you care.

I'm not threatening to quit. I'm stating as fact that I will no longer post in a place where competitions like this are held. That is something I can control, and I have the right to exercise that control. I'm not holding it over anyone's head, and I haven't asked to control anything else. You all have the right to control how you react to all the women leaving. Nobody can make anybody do anything.

I suggested the conditions under which I would be comfortable with such a competition, and it was mocked. I made no further ado in the nomination thread.

I remain aware that your impression of my posts is likely colored by your impression of me, but, thankfully, I'm no longer the only woman in this thread who shares my view.

come on people! what the hell? almost everyone agrees it's objectifying women. we have two women posting in the thread that they don't like it. that alone should be enough.

and several men don't like it either.

i used to love miss pog. i feel stupid for being so yuck.

before MB made this thread, i said i was gonna post a poll to vote on if we should have a miss pog. MB said he wanted to have a discussion first. but the more i think about it, the more i think a poll is unnecessary. there are some things that shouldn't be majority rules. this is one of those things.

i feel very strongly about this