Seeing VR and Cross take such strong stances on an issue and how offensive they find it and it is completely reasonable for filthy to reassess his past behavior and adjust. That is what smart people do when they see heart felt valid opinions explained.

the arguments about the washington redskins name is almost the same as the arguments about miss pog

"you shouldn't be offended"

"well, we are offended"

I mean ya. Ive left bars crying before because people who i thought were my friends, once realizing i recently broke up with my partner, tried to hook up with me. Objectification sucks. But im not so naiive as to dismiss the times where ive gone to bars and taken my shirt off because i wanted attention. Idk. I should prob stop for the night. Color me ambivalent for tonight

In general I don't really understand what the word "offense" keeps getting brought into this conversation at all. I'm not sure I have seen one person who has advocated for ending Miss POG characterize their views as "offense". I think the activity is sexist and I do not think POG as a community is sexist, or if it is we should work to make it less so. Therefore it does not belong here.

So it sounds like you agree objectification is bad and you understand why women might feel alienated in this community when such objectification occurs. You have left bars crying because of it. So maybe lets not let a similar outcome happen on POG?

i used to be objectified too, not so much these days now that i'm old and gained a lot of weight. sometimes it's a huge thrill and a ton of fun. sometimes it feels awful. i think we all get that.

i'd imagine that being objectified is a different experience for everyone, and i'd guess there is a difference between being objectified as a straight man, and as a gay man, and as a straight woman, and as a gay woman, and all the different variations.

Self objectification is not the same as being systemically objectified by others. I'm still working through my thoughts and feelings on women who use self objectification as a means of empowerment, but to be honest I lean towards being pro.

The main difference between you being objectified and you objectifying yourself is the way it feels. One makes you feel like ****, and the other feels great. I'm trying to make you understand that women come from a place of historically, and presently in many ways, having that choice made for us.

I'm really asking for you to be my ally in this. Pog is the bar VR and I are figuratively leaving crying. Our struggles are very different, admittedly, but they're the same in that we're just asking for our own agency, dignity, and respect.. same as you.

My point is that progress takes time, & things that are considered obviously racist or homophobic now, weren't considered that way 5 years ago.

People grow & develop in different ways, but very few people take well to being called names because they disagree with something.

Some people clearly are a certain way, but you've also jumped to paint rational critiques in a negative light in a dismissive manner. People don't take well to "your opinion is stupid & racist/sexist/bigoted." That's part of how this whole presidential thing happened...

It's obviously hard when one has a personal connection to an argument to remain 100% rational on an issue (which is also why I suggested monkey not be the arbiter of discipline in the thread).

Sure, if you feel strongly about the issue & would like to sway the non-intractible, that would be best bet.

Experiencing it personally is not comparable to discussing with your cohorts what celebrities you find attractive.

But i understand your point. Again, drunk and ambivalent right now

Understood. Ill come to this tomorrow

JMurder, progress happens because people get called out on their bull****. I have taken copious personal attacks in this thread. I haven't called anybody names. Yes, I think a lot of the things people have said in this thread are stupid and sexist. You are beyond the pale focusing on my position in all this.

**** this place. I'm going to take my talents to South Beach.

No...people progress because they realize that they were wrong. Different people get to that point in different ways.

I didn't call our your behavior at all. I think your behavior is fine. I'm just pointing out that it's, in my opinion, a suboptimal way to get the undecided to agree.

See, this is why I don't discuss things that matter on the internet. I always look at things from a legal argument perspective which makes people who I'm not even disagreeing with think I'm attacking them personally.

I'm just saying progress takes time.

lol, this is v/v/v/v

the only wolves are monkey and birdman, you dopes.

It's just that maybe we shouldn't ditch long traditions that many care about just because some people change their minds on a whim. And don't pretend like you have any real arguments, it's we don't like this is going on vs we like that this is going on

I'm not really feeling like politarding in general though.
Yeah, I might've took a leap. It was the 'think of the children' comment with recent activity in the actual ms pog thread.

You realize most of the women (the actresses and models) that are being objectified in this competition are getting paid for it. It is their job. Are you arguing that it is immoral for them to have this job, because it makes other women feel bad? Should we be protesting all models, actors and actresses for this reason?

72off and suq with a couple sane posts

Thread highlight has been dkgo recommending his revolutionary dkgoblock technique without taking personal credit for it. Would Dr. Harry Heimlich have been so humble, one wonders.

The porn star hand is being overplayed.

Someone asked if a porn star could be nominated, and my comment was:

If the concept of a porn star is unsettling ( and I can at least see how it would be for some), then think of the question as this:

Is it Ok to nominate someone who works as a ___________?

IMO, I don't need to no what the blank is to know that the answer must be yes.

VR, if you don't accept "yes" as the correct answer, then it is a tough place to continue your argument from. For, how can you on one hand object to what you see as a contest in POG that objectifies women , and yet on the other hand say that a person is unfit for said contest based on how she earns a living? Don't both things take on some form of judgement?

If judging in the former is wrong, than it is also wrong in the latter.

As for my POG nominee, she is not a porn star. She is a highly accomplished Canadian athlete and an excellent role model.

For my views on body-imaging, see my post 60411 in the politics thread.

I am still very much open-minded about things, and am reading the posts with interest. I really appreciate the rationalism that JM3 is bringing in the last batch of posts, and the respectful back and forth he and Crossnerd are having ITT.

More of that would be great.

Of all the threads on POG, this is certainly one of them.

No matter what the decision is I am still allowed to bump the KB thread once per year which is something I've been slacking on. That can't be taken away from me and winning miss pog was a pretty cool experience that only a small number of people can attest to.

I say we switch to cats

Yes. Also, you should always look away when you see a beautiful woman, as it makes the other girls feel bad and is sexist. You should first check her SAT scores and character references. Then you may look, but only at the eyes to make sure they are kind and honest. Also, if you get an erection from looking at a naked woman you are also a sexist. The proper way to gain blood flow is by reciting the 19th amendment over and over again until climax. You must also ask before climaxing and make sure she gets to have hers first...lol ok, ok, I can't say that last part with a straight face: just kidding, no reason to break a sweat about it guys.

Can't see bumping KB thread if Miss POG is outlawed. Good Place Season 1 is legit great, so I'll allow bumping KB thread for now.

They still would need to be female cats of course.

I also ran a best 4L pet competition...

People thought it might have been sexist because a girl's cat beat a guy's baby alligator in the finals.