Im drunk and out right now but i'll weigh in on this tomorrow. I understand the side that perceives this to be objectification of women. But i also think theres a subtle amount of hypocrisy going on here

Although I agree with her position, I find it oddly ironic that the person who is against the objectification of women has an avatar of a woman being used as an object...

Yeah, the hypocrisy of women actually enjoying it.

Suq, you may experience objectification moreso than the average man, but you comparing your experience to that of a woman's as if they are similar is ridiculous and *gasp* offensive. Despite whatever comparisons you may have made in your mind, you are not actually a member of the same class as women, and your dismissal based on your own experiences is pure unadulterated privilege at its finest.

VMF and filthy have hot women being all hot as their avatars as well.

Just a great operation all around.

Are you and others incapable of actually engaging with the discussion rather than just pointing out the flawed character of those involved in the discussion?

What kind of standards are these where an opinion can only be deemed valid if the person offering it is perfect? By that argument why ever listen to anyone ever?

lol'd len

i haven't really offered my opinion on the matter tho

the TOAN of the thread was set within ~10 posts when the first dissenting opinion was banned and the second was given an equally terrible response by the mod (and creator of the thread)

i think it was irtm that made a pretty good post that was closest to my thoughts

Is this a serious post?

Does that fact that right now I only participate in the fantasy football game on POG make Miss POG somehow less sexist? Or does it just make those who are engaging in said sexist activity feel better because the person delivering the message isn't a "real POGger"?

You do understand the avatar is trying to make the very statement you are observing in this post, right?

buffy the vampire slayer is a character created from the idea of woman power. and the whole story of the show is about how awesome women are. but you're right she is largely marketed as a hot piece of ass. maybe i should change my avatar

I don't really see the hypocrisy. Peoples opinions evolve. Rating woman on their looks hold no value and it actually is offensive to some people. Just because men get objectified in real life, does not make anyones opinions on this less valid.

I sometimes think about how men are treated badly and unfairly sometimes when I see these things. It is not the time to bring them up, they are separate issues.

I also think woman might be more predisposed to eating disorders. I have not looked into those numbers, but it is also something to consider.

She just has the same dance styles as me and I appreciate her acting..

There used to be a poster on POG that murdered a prostitute in Thailand. Do you want to start pointing out his flaws too to make yourself feel better? Like maybe if you deflect enough it will somehow make your misogyny ok?

I don't know that anyone is saying that xn's opinion isn't VALID, & if they are, that's a bad take. Just because someone has a very valid opinion doesn't mean that other rational people can't have different opinions, though. Rational people can even have wrong opinions sometimes.

The fact that people can't differentiate between these things is why most arguments about politics, & on the internet in general, are pretty awful. That & all the actually irrational people.

Its absolutely not 'privileged'. I have probably experienced more objectification than you (gasp), and i hardly see how gender is relevant. If anything, the gay community is even more shallow and baseless. Do you consistently have 'friends' who want to have sex with you based solely on your looks? Or people only interested in interacted with you because they find you attractive? Or once theyve had sex with you, disappear because they got what they wanted? Because i have. A fair amount. And its not fun. But whether its ms pog or mr pog, i dont see how my experience as being objectified warrants this lighthearted contest to being extirpated from pog

I'm fine with people having other valid opinions. I have see a few in this thread regarding Miss POG. However most seem to be opinions on the people making the argument against Miss POG rather than about Miss POG. That strikes me as irrelevant banter and just rhetorical tricks.

I would like to hear the people who like and support this game. What value does it bring? What type of interesting discussion can even occur in a thread like that?

People are usually negative too. it is not usually a celebration of a womens beauty, it usually turns into a critique or what is wrong with them from skims.

Ok, JMurder, but there are exceptions to how much a person is expected to tolerate with regard to others' opinions. I assume you would not expect a black person to listen to a group of white people dismiss their issues with racism. Or a group of straight people telling Suq, for example, that he should suck it up and take civil unions its better than nothing.

Why am I expected to take a generous view here?

For my part, I think I've maintained extraordinary patience in the face of some fantastically galling assertions made itt.

Agree, but painting all arguments as that, when your admit there are others as well, is also a rhetorical trick.

I think what is important to focus on is not everysone faults in this thread, or possibly hypocrisies or treatment we receive as Marlon Brando juniors. We want POG to be inclusive right? I do not see how anyone could want to make this place less comfortable for women to play games in. I also do not see any redeeming qualities it brings.

I do think a Pog Person of the year could bring some interesting conversation.

Sure. What I should probably do, if I have time tomorrow maybe, is go through the thread and quote all the posts that actually make an argument for why stopping Miss POG is a bad idea. Then we can operate from those instead of all these half assed ad hominem argument.

Suq, you are to me right now what anti-gay marriage people are to you.

I assume you think you should have the right to marry whomever you choose, in all 50 states? And I assume its frustrating to you to have to listen to straight people dismiss your real concerns because they can't see past their own privilege.

So here I think I have the right to live in a world where women aren't sexually objectified in the manner of Miss Pog. I didn't ask to impose a ban, I asked for the minimalist of changes- that the women in the contest be looked at as people. I'm sure there have been times in your life you wished others looked at you more as a person, and in this is where I feel like our kinship should lie.

I'm sorry to "go there", but its how I feel.

I agree with this. Its just a tough situation imo. If it makes MOST women here uncomfortable, then i guess you have my support. But im just of the nature to not be as offended by such things (inb4 youre not a girl)

The ~most active poster exhibiting this behavior in Ms. POGs that I've been around for is filthyvermin, so who knows, things may change this year now that he's seen the light?

I like you SuqAta8. I think its important when one issue comes up, that we dont bring to the table the other side of how men feel, because its a separate issue. We can probably agrees on a lot of things on both sides, but fighting objectification on one side, does not mean we need to bring up what happens to men. We have this issue here, that we can handle and make people feel better about POG.