strange to see l0t@n hate here but totally deserved

Wow at that ****er submitting a bracket. I almost want to see him win just for the **** storm that would follow...almost...

Nice to see FMK Sr take out Zimmerman. FMK v FMK Sr in the quarterfinals?

fmk will probably continue to be on vugraph all night because their match is close

glglgl

thanks... I think almost all the matches are close though so I'm not sure. This event is pretty crazy how their are super close matches and upsets starting even in the round of 64 all the time. There are lots of really good bridge players now.

I'm taking some Benadryl, please blow them out in the third quarter so I don't miss anything important.

That was not what I meant.

Nicely done, fmk. (platinum pairs)

lol, down 50 with one quarter to go we lost 10 on the first board of the 4th and should have easily won, including doing better on the last board...to lose by 10. UGH. Oh well.

Nickell just too good

I really didn't expect team space balls to get styled on so badly

How does thread interpret an auction to this point:

(2S)-X-(P)-3C
(P)-3H-(P)-4C

2S is a weak two bid

Double is takeout and nominally shows something like a 1444 opening bid or more, or a very strong single suited hand (say 19+, give or take).

Depending on if you're playing lebensohl or not, 3C either shows values or doesn't. If you aren't playing lebensohl, 3C shows 0 to about 9ish points, and at least four clubs. If you are, 3C shows values (say a nice 7 to 10 or so) and at least four clubs. (I won't horrify you with ideas of what to bid with 5432 432 432 432, but 3C is probably best, so, you know, good luck with that).

3H shows the big hand with hearts. Something like x AKJxxx AKx Kxx or so is about a minimum.

4C shows a lotta clubs and not a lotta points.

My first idea was: I agree with DWetzel.

Then I thought about it and I think 4c must be forcing, also if you do not play Lebensohl.
To play 4C as STFU PARTNER; WE PLAY CLUBS AND HOPEFULLY WE MAKE 10 TRICKS is way too narrow. If you do not want to play game, you pass (though you cannot pass 3H if you play Lebensohl, it will be GF).
4c as forcing sacrifices the ability to find a better part score, which is a small price to pay for find out out the best game (or slam).

I mean, sorry, I'm bidding 4C with xxx - xxx Jxxxxxx there. You can tell me I shouldn't, but I am.

(Note that partner can raise with a suitable hand, it's not "drop dead"; he probably should raise with the hand I gave as an example because it might make)

Why would I be telling you to not bid 4c with that hand? Seems to me 5c will be often much better than 3H.

Sure, but it's definitely not better opposite x AKJxxx AKxx Kx, and I don't want to have to bid 5C or 4H with this hand.

I will say that in a lebensohl context this should be forcing (values opposite a monster ought to have a play for game), but in a standard context it shouldn't.

(You might be making the argument that we shouldn't cater to these hands to instead cater to stronger hands that would like to stay flexible/leave room to explore the best game. You might be right, but I don't think it's standard without discussion, and so it doesn't answer the question asked very well.)

I think it will be possible to find hands that play better in 4c than they do in 3H or 5C, I just think that if you haven't got much room and are quite close to game going values, you should not allow so many bids to be NF.

3H bidder could easily have just 5 hearts and you might belong in clubs rather than some shaky 5-2 heart fit with potential 5-1 break against you and 5c completely cold and maybe even 6c playable.

So being able to bid a natural 4c with a goodish hand and 6 clubs, without worrying about a pass from partner, will make finding the best final contract much more comfortable than e.g. an ambiguous 3s bid.

If I have values and partner bids this way, he has either:

A true semi-balanced hand (e.g. 1633), for which clubs will be fine, or
A real ONE suited monster (if he's two suited in the reds, he should choose a different action, like 4D the first time), for which him converting clubs to hearts at any level should be fine

so I'm not really afraid of bidding 5C with a bunch of clubs and a good hand.

Note, and this is really quite important, that we have 3S available as a general force to allow partner to take another action, which is what the flexible hands that might want to play in 4H or 5C ought to do after 3H

I think Wetzel wins with this but Gabe makes a good point

I would presume no lebensohl - I don't play lebensohl here - I think 4C should be a hand that is only taking tricks in clubs, can't tolerate 3NT or 4H and has enough in clubs that it can likely produce 5-6 trump tricks - Partner can pass or bid 5C - I would pass 3H with xxx - xxx Jxxxxxx - That is kind of Gabe's point - 4C has to have a meaning beyond "I have no tolerance for hearts and a bunch of clubs" because in context that meaning is too narrow - maybe xx - xxxx QJ10xxxx

Dblr can have a 2542 monster too, no? I just think 3H says "I have primary hearts and a big hand, and I'm unsure of the right strain"

Partner with single suited monster can bid 4h over 2s or bid 3s followed by 4h, no?

Fwiw I agree that 1633 should double since he's unsure of the right strain.

3c and 4c for me are forcing (Leb). But in a non-Leb context I dont know. Feels like it should be forcing since with a 3541 hand, I think you want 4d over 4c to be forcing. But this is part of why Leb is so good.

If we are not sophisticated enough to play a convention like Lebensohl, I'm sure we cannot show a two suiters either. So imo partner could easily have that strong two suiter hearts/diamonds. Or a 1543 type of hand.

I would reserve 3S for hands that are specifically interested in 3NT and have some spade values OR a hand with heart support that woke up with a good hand. Not as a "General force".

Ax
Jx
xxxx
Qxxxx
With the above hand, if partner has a spade honor and only 5H, you want to be in 3NT. If he doesn't have a spade honor, you want to play 4H.

Axxx
Qxx
x
Jxxxx
With the above hand you advance cue 3S.

With a hand like
xx
Jx
Axxx
Qxxxx

You do not want to bid 3S and hear 3NT which could still be the wrong contract if partner has 5H and a single stopper. So I would just do a natural 4D or support directly to 4H.

With a hand like
xx
xx
Kxx
KJTxxx

You want to bid a natural 4c and end up in either clubs or hearts. Partner could have a hand like

Kx
AKT9x
AQxx
Qx

and 5c is much safer than 4h, while 3NT has no play. And you do not want him passing 4c with anything!

If you are going to bid 3NT with a whole array of "forcing" hands, partner will not know when to bid 3NT with just a single stopper. So in this spot and in many similar, the best way is to reserve that 3s bid for hands that like NT, have some spade values, but not enough to bid 3NT.

If you don't play lebensohl 3H is not forcing - the doubler can bid 4H over 3C or 3S over 3C with a forcing hand say 2542

The lebensohl argument boils down to what you want to play a 2NT response to double as and there are pros and cons to agreeing that it shows a poor hand ie the usual lebensohl agreement

Ultimately pre-empts work and you are going to have to do some uncomfortable guessing no matter how detailed your agreements

FMP

Lebensohl is so vastly superior to not playing Lebensohl, it is not close.
The only discussion for experienced partnerships is if Lebensohl is enough or you want to play e.g. Transfer Lebensohl.

Really interesting posts guys.

Our group plays Lebensohl. We also play minorwood.

Questions that came up after 3H is, what does 4C mean for us? Is it a slam try in clubs, and does it ask RKC? Is it a cue for hearts? Is it I have nothing but clubs?