I disagree

If my partner opens 1NT, they preempt 3X and I bid a suit, we are going to play game.
Missing a partscore is a lesser evil then playing the wrong game or not being able to invite for slam.

4D as final contract?
Unpossible

On reflection... I haven't changed my mind, but I'd love to know fmk's take on this one. There's a case each way, because either way you have to give up something substantial.

Possibly it should be different at IMPs versus MPs, but I don't like having two systems.

You're right about this one; if opener responds 4D, then 5D should have play.

It seems like with the weak hands you can pass and reopen if partner doubles for TO; if he can't you may be better off letting them play 3C anyway.

Perhaps you can have both though, at least with a major; 3M weak and 4D/4H Texas seems obvious enough.

On phone and want to think more anyway; ping me if I don't come back to this at some point.

I agree, at least in as much as this reflects the system I've played for the last several years.

thanks for the suggestions

im going to xpost this to BBO for some more feedback

My take is it makes too many hands unbiddable in a reasonable way if you play new suits as NF. Of course there are some hands where you would like to make a non forcing bid and that is valuable, but if you have to double with hands that have 5M you start overloading the double, and if you have a slam try hand well forget about being able to bid intelligently at all.

There just isn't enough room and I think NF hands take the back seat, you can stretch to force with some and just suck it up and pass with others.

There are some good methods that allow you to cater to more hand types over 1N 3x. For instance over 1N (3C) it is fashionable to play:

3D=hearts
3H=spades
3S=diamonds
4C=majors (5-5+)
4x=texas

Most people who play that play the 3D and 3H bids as inv+, still not having a NF bid but gaining an invite. I would guess atak would prefer to give up the invite and play it as NF/GF and just choose one of those with the inv hands.

Over 1N (3D)

3H=spades inv+
3S=hearts GF

gains something on the spade hands (again, most play inv+ but if you want to play it as NF or GF and lose the inv you can do that also).

^^

Sometimes you have to suck it up and pass with a suit, but no game values ==> you might get lucky and see partner dbl and give you a chance to bid your suit.

I like the transfers over 3C, because they allow you to bid limit hands and make a lot of GF hands much easier to bid. Diamonds get shafted, but **** diamonds anyway

I wonder if something like

3D: one major, invitational

would be a good treatment (leaving 3H and 3S as natural and weak, or that major + diamonds, or something)

Opener bids the first suit they reject an invite in. Note this can cover slam invites as well.

Other than "can't play 3D", there are not many drawbacks IMO.

Cool, thanks for the opinion. I do like transfers in that and many other auctions (for example, I would play transfer lebensohl if I had a partner who could handle it, and I think transfer advances of overcalls is nearly a must to solve various problems, if you're playing standard overcall ranges).

If playing transfers I don't know whether I'd choose to include the game invite, or the drop dead; you're right that one can't have both. (But either way you get to look for the best game, and for slams.) As I mentioned earlier, this may be one of the few cases wherein it's worth playing two different systems, one for IMPs and one for MPs. But maybe not, idk.

As south @ matchpoints, none vul north dealer you hold:

KQ7642
K7
KQ4
AQ

The auction starts (silent opps):

1D-1S
2D-2H
3D-4D (4D=RKCB for D)
4S-5H (4S= 3/0, 5H = specific K ask)
6D-? (no kings)

We are obviously bidding 7 here, but 7D, 7S or 7N?

Never 7S. Can't really imagine a layout where 7S makes and 7NT is down. If field is competent I'd take my chances with 7NT. Looks like you have a lot of chances there. Spades split, partner shows up with Js, Qh, 7 diamonds. Or at worst, club finesse.

Yeah, realistically the choices are 7D or 7N. NAP flight B finals...

Does 6H ask for a third round heart control? That would be pretty sexy, and I can't think of what else it would mean here (and it sure as hell isn't natural). I think it's worth trying that then settling for 7D if partner signs off (presumably in 6NT).

Might end up being unfortunate if partner thinks Ax is what I'm hoping for and not AQx, but these things happen.

If you made me take one bid for my life it'd be 7NT, but I think the extra ask might be worth it.

7n

I would have bid 7NT directly after 4S.

Also what dumb system did I play to need to bid 2H when the only thing I am interested in is aces.

KQ7642
K7
KQ4
AQ

x
AQTx
AJTxxx
xx

1D-1S
2D-2H
4H-4NT
5S-6D
6H-6NT
pass

This went down. Whose fault was it?

Knowing whether partner has 3 spades or not makes a huge difference on this hand.

Do you want to be in 7n opposite

A
Axx
AJxxxx
Xxx

This is basically what partner is showing here. If spades don't split 7n needs a squeeze or finesse while 7D is lay down at trick 1

South for bidding 6H after partner placed the contract. Also for bidding 4H instead of 3H on his minimum. North made a 1 round forcing call, no reason to jump to game on souths hand.

Have you never jump shifted into a 3 card suit? Sometimes you have to trust partner to figure out what is going on.

Partner is not often going to have 3S in this auction.

The hand that ended in 6NT was just some dumb example of what problems you might face if you bid 2H with a doubleton. Partner can support you, with all kinds of potential for misunderstandings. In the original hand I would prefer 3C over 2H, because partner will unlikely have support for clubs (he did not rebid 2C) and could very well have 4H and insufficient values for a reverse rebid.

For me the correct bid after 2D is 4D, to set diamonds and ask aces after partner cuebids 4H. It makes the bidding clean and simple. In pairs I am shooting for 7NT if partner has 3 aces, always.

If you can jump rebid a new suit and have 3 of that suit and also 5 of that suit, then your bidding system needs refinement imo

X
AKQxxx
Qxx
AKx

1H-1S

Give me a bid partner can't pass

I my system, that was a standard 2C opener: 8 tricks in a major or any GF.

Ok modify it so it's not a 2C opener but something where you need partner to bid again

^^

With my partner a 3X jump in a new suit would always show 5/5 (1D-1M-3C or 1H-1S-3m).

The consequence was that sometimes we had to bid 2NT with 5431 or make a rather strong 2X rebid (which we were aware of, so we would not quickly pass 1H-1S-2C).

Also 1M-1NT-3X was 5/5 and exactly invitational. With GF 5/5 we would bid 1M-1NT-2NT (GF relay to 3C) after which we would show 5/5 GF or a hand with 6M and too strong for 1M-1NT-3M.

You will be able to mildly trap me and construct a hand that is too weak for 2C and too strong for 1H-1S-3H. With such a hand, we would usually open 1H and make the heavy 3H rebid if partner responds 1S. The bidding does not always go 1H-1S with silent opponents. Note that this problem does not exist in spades and not when partner responds 1NT (2NT was the bid with 6M and GF, as described earlier).

The advantage of our system was that jump rebids show real hands and real suits. Some hands might end up a little awkward to bid, but bidding 1H-1S-3C with 5/5 GF or with 6331 GF is also about as awkward as it gets imo.