Myrmidon I just saw you log on and off of BBO, if you're keen for a game I'm on with my regular P. Goes for anyone else reading this too. (I am ChrisV on BBO too)

Hey guys, I'm not too familiar with strong club sequences. What would 4N mean in this spot? (2H = bust, 2D waiting)

2C-3C
3S-4D
4N

I'm trying to imagine ever having that sequence. With a two suiter responder should have bid 2D at his first turn — though maybe with something extreme like 1=1=5=6 or 1=0=5=7, this is the right choice, I'm not sure. But anyway, that's important, because if he can't have the two suiter then 4D is slam-cooperative (in spades), showing a diamond control. But I doubt most less-than-super-solid partnerships would know that for sure, and so my default would be that it's natural (albeit weird, as I said).

Then it depends on your ace-asking sequences. If 4NT is blackwood here, or some kind of key card (though which suit is just never going to be clear imo — opener may want it to be spades but he doesn't get what he wants, and in any case it doesn't matter much because responder almost never has the spade king or queen — if he had one of those, stiff, he'd certainly have made a 2D response), then you have no way of getting out in notrump. Granted, that pretty clearly isn't what responder has in mind, but if opener has a 5=4=2=1 21 count opposite responder's 0=1=5=7, then 4NT can easily be the best spot, and the only way to get there is to have it be natural.

I think most players will play it as straight blackwood, though — I find that I think 4NT should be natural about ten times as often as most others do.

This sums it up for me -- except change "natural" in the last bit to "something non-Blackwood".

Yesterday I got roped into a bridge game that turned out not to be a game, but an instruction session for several raw beginners (two who'd never played a hand of bridge, two who'd played a little, and one who had organized it but was still a beginner by any standard). It was not so fun, but not for the reason you'd expect: The organizer kept pushing to make it a straight lesson, with me gently suggesting that maybe relaxing somewhat would be a good thing, and the total newbs clearly stressing under the weight of all the new information.

We did have some nice hands though. The first was a part score deal with a minor double fit facing a major double fit, and a sort of an interesting bidding problem:

none vul; rubber bridge; total beginners playing 1940s SA, sort of

(P) 1C – (1H) ?

xx
AQ
KT86xx
T9x

The raw beginner — literally had never played a hand before this one — worked out (I was impressed) that bidding diamonds here might go badly if partner didn't have them — she got that diamonds being a higher-ranking suit than clubs was relevant. Obviously we don't have a negative double available with this group, so that's out. And even with the heart ace-queen over the overcaller I wasn't going to suggest 1NT, because supporting with support is something I wanted to introduce early. (Btw, whether they were playing four or five-card majors was unclear at this point, and therefore so was opener's average club length.) I told her that pass, 2D, and 2C were all non-terrible options (and hai, welcome to bridge!), and she chose 2C.

On the actual hand (remember, double fits each way), a 2D bid finds the fit there (opener has xxx xx AQx AKxxx), and the final contract is 3H the other way, versus the 2H we stopped in; relevant because the bad guys have exactly eight tricks in hearts (or spades, which they cannot really find anyway). If the problem hand bids 1NT the final contract is still 2H.

It was amusing to think not just about what's best, but what to teach a beginner to do and how to think about it.

Fair enough, particularly if you ever mess around with DI or something like it. But for me in particular, leave the word "natural", even on reflection. The number of hands in the 28–31 HCP range where I really truly want to stop in 4NT is pretty large in practice.

Another fun one from yesterday: our fourth (of five) deal of the three hour (!) session:

red/white; rubber bridge; no longer raw beginners (they've now played three deals, after all!); still 1940s-ish SA with zero conventions:

Ax
Ax
AKTx
AKxxx


KJx
xxxx
QJ9xx
Q

South deals and passes; opps pass throughout (duh)

P (P) – 2NT (22–24 — nothing I could do about that) (P)
?

You are playing no conventions at all. You have no agreements at all. Bid the hand, and explain why to people who've never played.

Then bid it with real agreements — do you find the pretty good grand? (I don't think I would.)

I do, I do indeed, and I like it.

Hand 1: I really don't think 1NT is too bad there (actually, I don't think 2NT is too bad there), but I'd probably bid 2D and be prepared for it to be wrong.

Hand 2: No agreements? Well, hopefully 3D (a new suit by responder, after all!) will be taken as forcing, raised to 4D, and thence I will bid 6D and be content.

With agreements, still not sure I get there. I was in the midst of constructing a long DI (yes, really) sequence starting at 4D, but I'm not sure either side really gets the chance to show quite enough to make bidding the grand any good. (Opener might take a shot when responder shows interest but keeps not being able to cue anything of value.)

fwiw, on that slam hand the intermediates aren't good enough for there to be any reasonable squeeze possibilities as far as I can tell (heart 8 is the best spot there, I think; opener had the club nine), so 13 tricks comes down to 4–3 clubs (or jack-ten tight), opening spade lead into the tenace (which happened), or spade finesse.

I don't play 1940s bridge a lot so I don't even know what's normal here, but I chose to say that 3D would be non-forcing (yeah, it isn't, but it's a decent principle to teach that responder may need to escape and the only way to get out in diamonds is to bid them... this being more important for them to understand when the opening bid is 1NT), and that 4D must be forcing because it's gone beyond a likely game. Given that, we're obviously not control bidding so the only way to show slam cooperation with opener's hand is to bid it ... so we had a nice, simple 2NT – 4D; 6D sequence. Standard stuff (lol).

I truly do not know what's actually correct with zero agreements. I suppose once we reason that 3D is forcing, all roads lead to it, probably by, as you say, 3D; 4D – 6D.

I seriously cannot understand how people played for decades without conventional responses to notrump openings.

Best discussion from yesterday:

Opening bid is 1S; responder is 4=5=2=2 with an 8 or 9 count but that includes two doubleton queen-tens. After I have explained to them that 3S really should be invitational, notwithstanding the 1940s all-jumps-are-forcing stuff:

• player: So I have OK (!) spades but I don't really like my hand (he'd played a bit before)
• Me: Right. Your hand isn't great. But four card support is really nice, and you have some high cards. You should want very much to bid two and a half spades.
• New player: Can he do that?
• me: No. But he should want to.

Doubleton queens? It's worth 2.2 spades and no more.

Turned out opener was playing four card majors and had opened 1S on a 4=2=5=2 16 count, but there ya go. The diamond QT filled in her J98xx, enabling her to make game if she had used it to pitch a losing club from the board, but in practice this didn't happen. Anyway, we had a semi-reasonable auction: 1S – 2S; 2NT – 4S.

I have a basic bidding question.

Q
KJ82
KJ6
AQ432

Playing SAYC it goes uninterrupted:

P - 1
1 - ?

Normally with a 16 count I bid 2, but partner is a passed hand and we have shortage in his suit (is the stiff Q full valued?), so I don't think we're worth a reverse. Does this mean we miss game sometimes when partner passes a flat 10 count? With a probable misfit I guess we don't want to be in most 25 point 3Ns, so what is the upper bound of 2, and how strong should partner be to bid on?

Thanks

I think you can full value the stiff Q, given that it's in partner's suit.

This is a VERY borderline hand. You'd see some votes for opening it 1NT (I'm not one of them). In yon olden days they'd have opened this 1H and loved it.

I think you have to pick your poison on the rebid and either overbid some with a reverse, or underbid a lot with 1NT, or overbid a lot with 2NT, or just plain misbid with some number of clubs. Me? I'm reversing, with hopefully decent followups to be able to get out in 3C or so opposite a less than invitational hand.

On the plus side, if you DO end up in 3NT played your way, you are getting a favorable lead, like, a lot.

Edit to add: And yes, if partner has a flat 10, he's probably passing 2C -- though with some fitting clubs things will work out okay. I think 2C is really bad because it manages to misdescribe BOTH the strength and shape.

i bid 2H with this and don't think it's that close. I am definitely not rebidding 2C on AQ432.

I'm very much with DW here. I do think it's somewhat close, but you don't have good alternatives. Once you realize the queen in partner's suit really isn't overvalued by much, it's not so bad, and as wyman says, your clubs seriously suck for rebidding.

DW is also right that the solution once upon a time would have been to open 1H, and that's not a horrible choice right now either. If you weaken the hand a little, say by changing the spade queen to a jack, then I think it actually is a 1H opening (and yes, I'm playing 2/1 with five card majors). The key is that pard is a passed hand so we are never screwing up a slam auction; we also should have drury available (though DW doesn't play that... ).

Given that you chose to open 1C, you should bid 2H now and not totally hate it. Most of the time good things will happen, and when pard has a miserably-fitting five count, you still may outscore the 2C bidders when 3S makes with pard's AJTxx xxx xxxx x as 2C goes down. (Not that that's likely; my point is that even your solution to the problem may not actually solve it.)

Note that after 2H – 2S, I will rebid 2NT. If partner passes this, it's probably the right spot. If we end in 3S or 3NT, I will not be shocked at down one but whatever. On a good day we get to 4H, and when we get there we make it more often than not (even when pard has only three). And if we stop in 3C we're in almost exactly the same position as if we had bid 2C, because we will almost always have nine tricks with the club fit and the opening lead handing us one.

The auction I hate more with this hand is P – 1C; 1NT – ?. If you play that as 6–10, we are almost never making game after the spade lead crunches our queen; if it's 8–10 (with frequently-ambiguous diamonds) then I'll feel compelled to raise to 2NT and when partner declines I expect to go down often. That's actually the better argument for opening 1H — if we intend to escape from 1NT (which isn't forcing by a passed hand, obv) with 2C, then 1H is correct. But still, I'd only do it if you make that queen a jack — with the hand as is I live with the fact that life is imperfect and bridge is hard.

random drop in, but after 1NT response wouldn't we bid 2C?

Yes, most likely (if we were weaker, and maybe that sequence weakens our hand enough that some might with the actual hand, though I would still bid 2H). But that's my point: if you did, the 2C would be (almost) as bad as it is on this sequence - an understatement of strength and pretty big overstatement of the club suit. (Those spots really suck.) It would be to avoid that sequence that I would - if I thought of it at the table - give serious thought to opening 1H if the spade were a jack, and maybe with this actual hand too.

if you open 1H here and they respond 2H, what do you do?

If I'm playing drury, I pass.

If I'm not (or if he supports with 2C), I use my game try mechanism (natural 3C or kokish 2S). And I don't feel bad about it - the lack of a fifth heart will rarely hurt.

The real problem with lying about a fifth heart is when pard has a slam invite or better, and with him having passed I know that isn't the case.

What seat you're in really matters. I actually tried to get my regular partner, the one with whom I played Troll Club, to use Troll in first and second, natural with four card majors in third, and a modification I made to Romex in fourth. That didn't fly so we went to natural with kinda-sorta four card majors (by me but not him) in third and fourth.

Yeah, as others have said this hand sucks to bid in SAYC. My preference is 2H like others, but I'm not thrilled about it.

I'm happier bidding 2H with this hand than I am making up some bid with Q KJxx KJ6x AQ32 if I live in a part of the world where we open 1C or even if I open 1D.

They're both just problem hands with no "right" answer.