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01-20-2011 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
dude atak, we're not playing support doubles. Do you think we're playing some intelligent version of GSF?
Fixed.
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01-20-2011 , 04:17 PM
ok down 1 6D and 6N both make.

xxx/xx/AQx/KQ9xxx

Last edited by Wyman; 01-20-2011 at 04:18 PM. Reason: SAQ both offside, others make on clubs 3-2 and diamonds 4-1 or better
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01-20-2011 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
Also, multi 2D is allowed at our club, provided a defense is provided.

LHO opens 2D r/r, alerted. P asks. RHO says a weak 2 in either H or S, and they have an ACBL-prepared defense for us if we'd like. P says "no" and doubles.

WTFFFFFFFFFFF?

Kxx/Kxxx/AQx/Qxx
Well, the double is penalty in that case.

I don't think I want to penalize spades, and maybe not hearts, but let's see what happens if we double the likely 2H bid. I do expect to be bidding 3NT at some point.
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01-20-2011 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
ok down 1 6D and 6N both make.

xxx/xx/AQx/KQ9xxx
I'm sorry your partner can't bid.

Last edited by atakdog; 01-20-2011 at 04:21 PM. Reason: because if not playing support doubles he has an obvious "do something intelligent" double
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01-20-2011 , 04:20 PM
apparently the double of an artificial 2D is lead directing, showing about an 8-10 count and KJTxx of diamonds. Duhhhhhh!

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01-20-2011 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atakdog
I'm sorry your partner can't bid.
6kMP
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01-20-2011 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
apparently the double of an artificial 2D is lead directing, showing about an 8-10 count and KJTxx of diamonds. Duhhhhhh!

That's pretty much the same as penalty. WIth him having that hand he won't double their spades, so you'll bid 3NT and be down one or two. C'est la vie.

Please tell me you didn't think it was some weird takeout thing.
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01-20-2011 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
6kMP
Then I'm even sorrier. He still can't bid.
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01-20-2011 , 04:23 PM
Fun with yarbs:

9xx/6x/9xx/986xx

r/w
1S - (P) - P - (2H);
X - (3H) - ?

Is 3S too much? If it were w/r? If you were 3=1=4=5?
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01-20-2011 , 04:26 PM
With 3=1=4=5 I might. But probably not r/w. Probably not w/r either. If w/w, I think I would.

With your actual shape 3S is terrible vulnerable, even though it might turn out right this time. At different vulnerability it's still bad, though I might be sympathetic to a partner who did it w/w.
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01-20-2011 , 04:27 PM
If you pass, it goes 4H on your left, back around to you. Pass at all vulnerabilities with this shape? With 3=1=4=5?
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01-20-2011 , 04:44 PM
couple more quick problems, then gotta do some real work

r/r MP
T8xx/KQT98x/Jx/x
P-(1D)-?
a) How many hearts?
b) If you choose 2, the auction proceeds:
P-(1D)-2H- (tank X);
P-(3C)-P-(3D);
AP
Your lead?

w/r MP
x/J/AKTxxx/QJ9xx
(P)-P-(1C)-?
a) How many diamonds?
b) If you choose 4D, LHO shotguns 4H, p gives it some thought and bids 5D, and RHO bids 5H. Passing?
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01-20-2011 , 04:53 PM
declining the written defense tilts me so much. what a cheater.
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01-20-2011 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
Fun with yarbs:

9xx/6x/9xx/986xx

r/w
1S - (P) - P - (2H);
X - (3H) - ?

Is 3S too much? If it were w/r? If you were 3=1=4=5?
Yes, yes, maaaaybe if w/r AND 3=1=4=5 I might consider it but probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
If you pass, it goes 4H on your left, back around to you. Pass at all vulnerabilities with this shape? With 3=1=4=5?
If I wasn't bidding over 3H I'm never ever ever bidding now.
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01-20-2011 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
couple more quick problems, then gotta do some real work

r/r MP
T8xx/KQT98x/Jx/x
P-(1D)-?
a) How many hearts?
b) If you choose 2, the auction proceeds:
P-(1D)-2H- (tank X);
P-(3C)-P-(3D);
AP
Your lead?

w/r MP
x/J/AKTxxx/QJ9xx
(P)-P-(1C)-?
a) How many diamonds?
b) If you choose 4D, LHO shotguns 4H, p gives it some thought and bids 5D, and RHO bids 5H. Passing?
1A. 2H is enough; 3H at w/r but I'm a pig.
1B. God dealt me an honor sequence, so I'll lead it. A trump (small one) might be the winning lead though, declarer is going to have a lot of club losers to get rid of.

2A. Just one, for now. I might well be bidding clubs later if it's cheap and natural sounding (e.g. 1C - 1D - X - P; 1S - 2C).

2B. Nope, I'm doubling. Declarer will have some spade losers, almost certainly, and won't have anywhere good to put them. I might need +200 to beat a diamond partscore (lol?) or +500 to beat 5D=.
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01-20-2011 , 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWetzel
If I wasn't bidding over 3H I'm never ever ever bidding now.
I mean before maybe you didn't bid because you didn't want partner to raise, and/or you wanted to leave the guess to them as to whether to bid 4H. Now that they've (confidently, perhaps) bid 4H, you may have a save, which is worth considering, even if you only consider it briefly and dismiss it.

I did bid 3S with this hand, which I agree is just repulsive. Lefty bid 4H, partner bid 4S, and righty hit it. -500 vs 420. LHO had stiff Q, RHO J9xx. So it's a good save on a lot of layouts.

Mostly I was wondering whether I should bid if it goes 4H p p ?

Last edited by Wyman; 01-20-2011 at 05:12 PM. Reason: fixed spade cards j9xx not j8xx
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01-20-2011 , 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
I mean before maybe you didn't bid because you didn't want partner to raise, and/or you wanted to leave the guess to them as to whether to bid 4H. Now that they've (confidently, perhaps) bid 4H, you may have a save, which is worth considering, even if you only consider it briefly and dismiss it.

I did bid 3S with this hand, which I agree is just repulsive. Lefty bid 4H, partner bid 4S, and righty hit it. -500 vs 420. LHO had stiff Q, RHO J9xx. So it's a good save on a lot of layouts.

Mostly I was wondering whether I should bid if it goes 4H p p ?
Never. Just because they bid it doesn't mean it's making. Or, as you found out, 4Sx isn't worse -- and you're a lot MORE likely to get doubled after backing in with 4S than after you bid 3 and partner raises, because it's much more clear to them that it's their hand.
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01-20-2011 , 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
Fun with yarbs:

9xx/6x/9xx/986xx

r/w
1S - (P) - P - (2H);
X - (3H) - ?

Is 3S too much? If it were w/r? If you were 3=1=4=5?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
If you pass, it goes 4H on your left, back around to you. Pass at all vulnerabilities with this shape? With 3=1=4=5?
This actually is a really good intermediate hand-reading hand, imo, so I'm going to go through how I would think about it for any of the newer players who may bother to read through what promises to be a tome...

The 2H balance is not terribly strong — probably averages 12 or 13 HCP, and can be lighter. So we aren't stunned that partner doubles. But what does the double show?
  • First, the double isn't random: partner has very good shape for the double, extra strength, or both.
  • He rarely has six spades, as most players will rebid a six-bagger in this spot. But we're playing five-card majors so play him for exactly five.
  • The auction (including RHO's heart raise) tells us opps have nine hearts most of the time — 8 is possible if RHO has extra strength but he might have chosen redouble or 2S in that case, and 10 is also possible but less likely statistically and also suggested against given the not-terribly-aggressive opp bidding so far. So let's say pard has two hearts.
  • He doesn't have a second five card suit, because most players would bid it here and because the double suggests tolerance for anything we do.
  • This means pard's most likely shape is 5=2=3=3, with a chance of 5=2=4=2 (perhaps planning on bidding 3D over our 3C, not that that would be a great idea); 5=1=4=3 or (less likely because of our hand) 5=1=3=4 are also possible, but these unbalanced hands are less likely. Even 6=1=3=3 could happen if the spades are bad — but notice that for the spades to be bad requires a particularly unusual layout.
  • But wait — if partner's most likely shapes are balanced, what does that tell us? A weak balanced hand shouldn't have doubled (nothing extra), and a 15–17 count balanced hand would have opened 1NT (assuming we're playing strong NT and assuming partner isn't an idiot); that means partner's most likely hand is something like a 5=2=3=3 18 count (without a heart card, or he'd have rebid 2NT), with a 5=1=4=3 15–17 still in the running. Interesting.
This is why we didn't bid over 3H with the original hand: partner has enough defense that if the cards lie well for us we may be beating 3H (though probably not), and because we can't make 3S most of the time. All our trump will need to be used up in the drawing of trump, and there will be no entry to our dummy to take whatever finesses are almost certainly going to be needed. We're also losing the first two tricks just about always. Also, there are at least 22 HCP out against us, plus no reason to believe trump are breaking, so a double looks scarily likely if we bid and are wrong. –140 rates to be about average, but bidding and being wrong because we go down two (usually doubled) or because (gasp) were beating them is a near-bottom most of the time.

Notice that the law of total tricks also says don't bid: they usually have nine trumps but we usually have 8. Bidding 3-over-3 usually requires 18 total trumps.

What if we were 3=1=4=5? Now things are different: Partner is now more likely to have the big balanced hand so we have more stuff, our hand is contributing a likely ruffing trick, and that ruffing trick will also provide a hand entry. That's why we can consider bidding on. I'd do it w/w because it's really wrong only when we're down two and they double, and doubles are less likely when we're not vulnerable. Note if we're setting them we'd have to beat them three, or double them and beat them two, to beat the value of the 2S we probably could have made with the cards lying well, and those things aren't happening.

r/w, it's probably still not worth the risk. If opps are red, I know that all we need is to beat them 2 to get a very good board, and that's possible if pard has a strong hand. I still might do it if w/r (I said earlier that I wouldn't, but that may have been wrong), just because it's not likely to cost very much, either because I'm not doubled or because I go down only one.


So what about on the extended auction, when opps bid game and it swings to us?

Well, pard didn't double the final contract. Since we're providing a likely 0 tricks against a heart contract, we can safely assume that opps are making their game most of the time (but not always, and that's important too). But why did they bid it? They probably have either extra strength or extra shape, each making an unbalanced, and on average weaker, hand for partner more likely (weaker because the unbalanced 15 counts are now more likely, while the balanced hands were all too strong to open 1NT.)

If it's w/r, we can lose six tricks and still profit in 4S, provided we think the game will be bid at most tables. (We can't win if nobody else is bidding it.) Assuming LHO bid confidently, we can consider the sacrifice when we're 3=1=4=5, because we probably have a nice secondary fit in one of the minors which is both tricks and a late entry; we won't be surprised to lose a spade, a heart, and four minor suit tricks, for down three and a decent board. If we're red it needs to be a trick better than that, and I don't see it being more likely. If they're white they're slightly less likely to have stretched for the game but again we need to do a trick better, and it's less likely the field will bid the game. If it's r/w, forget about it.

What if we're 3=2=3=5? It's really bad if pard also has two dead hearts, because again that's two guaranteed losers and no board entries... but it does make it more likely that pard is the one with the stiff spade. Is that enough to bid on at good colors? I don't think so, because with a 5=1=4=3 good enough to hold our non-heart losers to five, partner might have found a third double, and he passed. That's why I'm passing at all colors with the flat hand. We'll probably get an average; bidding on rates to be a bottom a lot of the time and a top only when it's right and everyone else bid the heart game.


How does all this change at IMPs? Not a ton. Re the partscore decision, it makes bidding on when vulnerable a little more scary, but it was pretty bad at matchpoints too because of the risk of –200. But when not vulnerable, a double of 3S is extremely unlikely (it rarely pays much, and risks a game bonus), so I'd be slightly more inclined to do it w/r than at matchpoints (with the 3=1 hand only). At w/w I think it's a wash.

The game bidding is interesting. If they're vulnerable at IMPs it's more likely than it would be at matchpoints that they're stretching for the game, and sacrificing against a failing game is a huge swing, so I would bid on only if my opps' bidding was very confident, with the 3=1 hand. At all other colors, and with the balanced hand, no — even when the sac is right it's only two IMPs, and when it's wrong it's more than that, sometimes considerably more.

Last edited by atakdog; 01-20-2011 at 05:41 PM.
Bridge Quote
01-20-2011 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
couple more quick problems, then gotta do some real work

r/r MP
T8xx/KQT98x/Jx/x
P-(1D)-?
a) How many hearts?
b) If you choose 2, the auction proceeds:
P-(1D)-2H- (tank X);
P-(3C)-P-(3D);
AP
Your lead?
2H.

Three different leads are possible here. Ugh. Safest lead is the diamond, and I think I choose it, but I'm very close to leading the stiff club, as partner definitely has room for a minor suit ace.

Edit: meant say safest lead is (ldo on the actual holding) the heart, which I lead. Trump lead can be right but not away from the jack with another good lead available, at least I'm not finding it.


Quote:
w/r MP
x/J/AKTxxx/QJ9xx
(P)-P-(1C)-?
a) How many diamonds?
b) If you choose 4D, LHO shotguns 4H, p gives it some thought and bids 5D, and RHO bids 5H. Passing?
3D

As bid, I'm never bidding more diamonds. I lied about my length (not that that's necessarily wrong), so pard doesn't need to have too many here. Still, usually only one is cashing. What are my clubs worth? One or two tricks, hard to tell which.

If I bid only 3D and the auction got this high, I double, because I think I score two tricks in clubs more often than one. But if I bid 4D, I pass, hoping to have won the deal in the auction — a double now turns a top into a top, or an average into a bottom. No thank you.

Last edited by atakdog; 01-20-2011 at 05:49 PM.
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01-20-2011 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atakdog
Notice that the law of total tricks also says don't bid: they usually have nine trumps but we usually have 8. Bidding 3-over-3 usually requires 18 total trumps.
Erm, if there are 17 total tricks, we should be bidding 3 over 3, because if we're making 3S we're only beating 3H one trick (unless you want to double at the right vulnerability for +200), and if 3S goes down one it's a good save over 3H (again, unless vulnerability is wrong and they can double it for -200). If either side goes down two (taking 7 tricks) it's at the expense of the other side missing their ten-trick game.
Bridge Quote
01-20-2011 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWetzel
Erm, if there are 17 total tricks, we should be bidding 3 over 3, because if we're making 3S we're only beating 3H one trick (unless you want to double at the right vulnerability for +200), and if 3S goes down one it's a good save over 3H (again, unless vulnerability is wrong and they can double it for -200). If either side goes down two (taking 7 tricks) it's at the expense of the other side missing their ten-trick game.
Blah, correct.

I still hate bidding here — probably because (in total trick terms, which btw is not how I think about it at the table) I think opps are missing their game a lot, meaning we're risking 200 or 300 on what for now is a part-score deal.
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01-20-2011 , 05:45 PM
I bid 2H
led stiff club, which was a disaster. Declarer drew trumps in 3 rds and could hook clubs 3 or so times. Picked up the suit. Of course, p never mentioned Jxx of hearts.

I bid
4D - (4H) - 5D - (5H);
P - (P) - 6D - (X);
AP

Pard had:
JT9xx / x / QJxxxx / x

After the hand, he laughingly told me he thought I might have psyched. 7H is cold, -300.
Next round, I heard the adjacent table say "well, I guess I needed to bid 8D!"
Bridge Quote
01-20-2011 , 05:47 PM
Oh, and two procedural-ish issues:
  1. You shouldn't ever tell us partner tanked.
  2. If your club allows multi 2D it should be pre-alerted, and you should have to choose a defense before the hand. Doing what your partner did smacks of an angleshot (choose the defense with a hand that it suits well, decline it with his actual hand).
Bridge Quote
01-20-2011 , 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
I bid 2H
led stiff club, which was a disaster. Declarer drew trumps in 3 rds and could hook clubs 3 or so times. Picked up the suit. Of course, p never mentioned Jxx of hearts.

I bid
4D - (4H) - 5D - (5H);
P - (P) - 6D - (X);
AP

Pard had:
JT9xx / x / QJxxxx / x

After the hand, he laughingly told me he thought I might have psyched. 7H is cold, -300.
Next round, I heard the adjacent table say "well, I guess I needed to bid 8D!"
He's trying to field your psych by only bidding 5D, then changing his mind. Clearly has a 6½ diamond bid at his first opportunity after your 4D overcall.
Bridge Quote
01-20-2011 , 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
I bid 2H
led stiff club, which was a disaster. Declarer drew trumps in 3 rds and could hook clubs 3 or so times. Picked up the suit. Of course, p never mentioned Jxx of hearts.

I bid
4D - (4H) - 5D - (5H);
P - (P) - 6D - (X);
AP

Pard had:
JT9xx / x / QJxxxx / x

After the hand, he laughingly told me he thought I might have psyched. 7H is cold, -300.
Next round, I heard the adjacent table say "well, I guess I needed to bid 8D!"
Striped tail ape! Woohoo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by atakdog
Oh, and two procedural-ish issues:
  1. You shouldn't ever tell us partner tanked.
  2. If your club allows multi 2D it should be pre-alerted, and you should have to choose a defense before the hand. Doing what your partner did smacks of an angleshot (choose the defense with a hand that it suits well, decline it with his actual hand).
Agreed with the second point (partner, in addition to not knowing how to bid, is likely an angle shooting d-bag), but not the first, simply because it's instructional to know how NOT to bid in situations where you're exposed to UI from partner. (As I'm sure you know, but others might not, this requires more than just "bid as if partner hadn't tanked".)
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