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06-21-2008 , 08:25 PM
Spade to the Q definitely isn't best, I think at that point in your line you should lay down the HQ maybe. I think the key to the hand is not to try to ruff all the diamonds, because you will get owned by spade ruffs and 4-1 heart breaks a lot. Instead I would discard the diamond on a losing club later on. It's vital that you don't use the trumps in your hand for ruffing because you will lose trump control vs 4-1 breaks, so you shouldn't ruff the losing club and therefore it's available to use as a parking place for the diamond.

I suck at declarer play though, so I'm interested to read other peoples' thoughts.
Bridge Quote
06-21-2008 , 09:01 PM
I'm going to quote myself to put the hand on this page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
I just got back from playing a sectional with my dad. We are both in the noob category (0-50 MPs) but over the weekend, we both made 7.29 silver points. First of all, is that good? Second of all, does it mean anything?

Third, I have a card play question. We're playing a pairs (MPs) event. We're basically playing SAYC, but my dad isn't very familiar with anything intricate. We go by "feel" a lot, but we understand the basic workings of SAYC (i.e. we know the basic point ranges of different bids, and what's forcing and invitational [for the most part]), but we don't have a very sophisticated grasp of it (like neither of us knows WTF Lebensohl does). I hope I've painted a fairly good picture of our experience and skill level.

I'm sitting south, both sides vulnerable.

A Q 6 4
K J 7 3
7 4 3
9 8

North deals and opens.

1 - pass - 1 - 2
3 - 4 - 4 - all pass

The opening lead is the A, and the dummy shows:

K 10 9 8
Q 5 4 2

A K 6 4 3

For reference, my hand is:

A Q 6 4
K J 7 3
7 4 3
9 8

What's the best way to play this hand?

Spoiler:
I ruffed the opening lead in dummy, played a spade to the ace, ruffed another diamond. Spade to the Q was ruffed by west, and I ended up going down 1, because the spades and hearts each broke 4-1 in the opposite hands.


Are there any improvements over my line? Is it better to play out the top 2 clubs, and try to ruff the 3rd for an entry to my hand?
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06-21-2008 , 09:53 PM
Ruff another diamond. Draw trump (small to the J). When you find out about the 4-1 split (on the 2nd round of hearts), you know you're going to lose 2 trumps, so I'd play Ac, Kc, and park a diamond on the losing club, hopefully letting lefty lead back into me. Then I'd hit spades. When the long heart ruffs in, you can now draw trump and play out your established clubs and your spades (hopefully clubs were 3-3; otherwise, you can ruff another club with your last heart and get back to the board with a spade).
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06-22-2008 , 05:00 AM
<quote>What's the best way to play this hand?</quote>

<grunch>

A crossruff isn't working: 2 spades, 2 clubs, 3 diamond ruffs brings you to 7, along with 2 high trumps is only 9.

So I ruff the diamond, play a trump to the K, ruff another diamond, play another trump.
If trumps are 4-1, I'll leave the last one out and play my side suits.
Opps are free to take their trump ace when they like.

</grunch>

If hearts aren't breaking, cater for the opportunity that the other hand has 4 spades, either by playing spade ace, king, or ace, queen.
I don't really see how you lose more than 2 trumps and a diamond that way -- you'll always have control of the trump suit, because the long trump has to ruff before you do so.
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06-22-2008 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
I just got back from playing a sectional with my dad. We are both in the noob category (0-50 MPs) but over the weekend, we both made 7.29 silver points. First of all, is that good? Second of all, does it mean anything?
Silvers and blacks are the only ones that are at all hard to get, because they come in smaller chunks. (Well, platinum aren't so easy, but you don't need those for LM.) For people who play in the clubs a lot and hit all the MP-inflation special games, silvers are usually the limiting factor for attaining life mastership.

(In my opinion, the main thing determining how hard points are to get is the event, not the tournament -- anything earned in bracketed knockouts at any level is a ludicrously inflated joke, as are anything earned for placing in B or C strats [as opposed to flights]. But I'm rather a purist.)

Any player who is moderately competent at choosing partners and teammates will make LM after putting some time into going to tournaments, so worry not about that and just focus on who well you play.

As an aside (inspired by my reference to platinum points, which are earned only in NABC+ events) -- bridge and poker are the only seriously competitive endeavors with global followings that I know (I won't call them sports, though some do -- but that's anoter debate) in which anyone can, if he chooses, play against the best players in the world. A $14.50 per session entry fee (or whatver it is these days) at the Nationals gets you the right to sit down against Zia, Hamman, Helgemo -- it just depends on the draw. Ask a golf fan what the chances are that he would be allowed to play against Tiger Woods in a Grand Slam event. Ask a tennis fan whether he expects ever to play against (insert name of whoever's great these days -- I'd just say Becker or Agassi). In bridge, all it takes is the will to try it and a lucky draw.

When I lived in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, I would see (and play against) Bobby Wolff at club games and Bob Hamman at the monthly citywide black point game. A good (bad?) draw in a knockout at a sectional would get you a team of Hamman (with either his wife or Hemant Lall) and Nagy Kamel/Greg Hinze. And if you beat them? A couple of silver points. (Evidence that it's not about the points.)

Only in bridge -- and poker -- is this possible. Relish it. Play up whenever you are playing with a partner who has the right disposition. There is no shame in losing to players who are better than you -- and sometimes you win.
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06-22-2008 , 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
I'm sitting south, both sides vulnerable.

North deals and opens.

1 - pass - 1 - 2
3 - 4 - 4 - all pass

The opening lead is the A, and the dummy shows:

K 10 9 8
Q 5 4 2

A K 6 4 3

For reference, my hand is:

A Q 6 4
K J 7 3
7 4 3
9 8
This is matchpoints, so guarding against crappy breaks isn't the only consideration -- you need to make an overtrick if it's easy to do.

Assumptions (probably correct to make at matchpoints):
  • LHO has the heart ace (for his vulnerable overcall). Not certain, but even if it's wrong you're not dead.
  • Neither opponent has a void (or someone would have bid 5D). This is almost completely safe to assume against decent opponents.
  • LHO is moderately unlikely to have a side-suit singleton. (From e.g., x Axx AKJxxx xxx he would sometimes lead his spade, preserving the possible diamond entry to his partner's hand for after he wins the trump ace and hoping for a fourth trick in a black suit.)
Ruff the diamond. Play a spade to the ace (not queen -- it's slightly harder for LHO to get a read on the suit this way, and he may misplay from Jxxx Axx AKJxx Q).

Now a heart toward the queen. If spades are 4-1, LHO has to fly with the ace and read the position to give his partner a ruff, and in that case trump must be 3-2 (or A/xxxx) so the hand is done -- win the return, ruff another diamond, draw trump, claim (losing the heart ace, a spade ruff, and a late diamond -- there may be chances for overtricks still, but let's leave that alone).

If the heart queen holds, either trump are 3-2 and you can continue with another heart, or LHO started with Axxx and you can safely play another spade. I think it would be best to play a second spade -- if it is ruffed you can win any return, ruff a second diamond, and lose only a diaond, the spade ruff, and the heart ace. This fails when RHO ruffs from an original holding of Axxx and he held up on the heart queen, but I just don't see that happening.

Playing this way, you will usually make 4, but will score an overtrick when the majors are each 3-2 or when LHO holds something like xxx A AKJxxx Jxx.

(BTW, if the majors don't break the opponents have probably missed a profitable sacrifice, so there's no particular reason to worry about overtricks in such cases.)

In your eagerness to get rid of diamond losers, you lost trump control. The opponents will often be trying to tap you in diamonds as it is -- there's nothing else for them to attack. Note also that there's a reasonable chance clubs are 3-3 (if they were 5-1 someone would have sacrificed, so only 3-3 and 4-2 are at all likely), in which case you may even be making 6 with only one diamond ruff (when opps have xxx Ax AKJxx Jxx opposite Jx xxx QTxxx Qxx or the like).

[BTW, not gospel - I'm a much better bidder than cardplayer.]
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06-22-2008 , 03:17 PM
Atak, all very true.

Fred Hamilton plays at our sectionals here in Fresno, and it is very interesting to play against him.

Of course I always alert "Capelletti" when I play against him.

For those not in the know, Capeletti and Hamilton are interchangeable names for the same defense vs NT. Hamilton claims to be the inventor, but most people call it Capeletti.

7.29 Silver is a nice score for a sectional. Did you happen to notice how that compared to the others playing? The website of the club should list the total points for each participant from the event.

We need to get a POG bridge game going some time. I play with Chuckleslovakian a lot, but we would like more POGGERS involved. We can even set up free tournaments on BBO....
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06-22-2008 , 03:26 PM
Also, your partner has an easy game bid at his second turn; there's a decent argument for a 4D bid (which would show a raise to 4H with a singleton or void in diamonds). He has a five-loser hand, excellent support, and a void in the bad-guy's suit -- even at matchpoints, merely inviting game here is awful.

(If you have as little as QJx AJTxx xxx xx you might decline the invitation, but game is excellent.)
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06-22-2008 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FCBLComish
Fred Hamilton plays at our sectionals here in Fresno, and it is very interesting to play against him.

Of course I always alert "Capelletti" when I play against him.

For those not in the know, Capeletti and Hamilton are interchangeable names for the same defense vs NT. Hamilton claims to be the inventor, but most people call it Capeletti.
The first NABC+ event I ever played in, the national open Swiss in Boston, after I got done with declaring (well enough) my first hand of the day my prtner informed me that the guy at the next table who had been kibbitzing my play was Mike Capelletti. (I'm glad he hadn't told me beforehand -- I'd been playing only a couple years and was nervous enough without the added pressure.)

A couple mornings later we ran into Jade Barrett and Benito Garozzo (for those who don't know, Garozzo was widely considered the best player in the world during the sixties and early seventies) in a single-session morning pairs, and I was hooked on Nationals.
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06-22-2008 , 05:33 PM
So far I have only played in sectionals, but I am looking forward to getting to a regional or a national.
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06-22-2008 , 06:01 PM
I've directed at enough regionals not to be overly impressed by them, but they certainly can be fun. These days with the bracketed KOs going dozens of brackets deep they're less fun than they used to be, but definitely worth doing.

Every duplicate player should play in a platinum point event before he dies.
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06-22-2008 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FCBLComish
So far I have only played in sectionals, but I am looking forward to getting to a regional or a national.
Do you need to qualify for these events, or is it open, like a sectional?

Also, how do I get gold points? I don't think I have any of those; and they they seem to be a requirement for life master right?
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06-22-2008 , 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
Do you need to qualify for these events, or is it open, like a sectional?

Also, how do I get gold points? I don't think I have any of those; and they they seem to be a requirement for life master right?
No qualifying necessary. Regionals and Nationals pay in Red and Gold points. The only way to get Silver is in a sectional.

I currently have less than 50 points, and 20 of them are silver.
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06-22-2008 , 06:51 PM
Regionals have dozens of events over the course of a week; nationals probably over a hundred, over a couple of weeks.

Entries into many events at an NABC are limited in some way: seniors, womens, and non-life masters are the common limitations. There are also a couple of events for which one qualifies in one's region (one pair event and one team event per year). And there are three other NABC+ events (these are the ones that pay platinum points -- there about 30 over the course of the three NABCs per year, but this includes a number that are restricted to women or seniors) for which one needs to qualify: two life master pair events (qualification = be a LM), and the blue ribbon pairs. (Blue ribbon quals are earned for winning regional events, basically.)

The rest -- the Vanderbilt, the Spingold, the National Swiss, and so on -- are open to anyone with a partner (available at the partnership desk -- I have played in many of these with pickup partners), a convention card, and a few bucks.
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06-22-2008 , 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
Also, how do I get gold points? I don't think I have any of those; and they they seem to be a requirement for life master right?
This may be slightly off, but is close:

Black is for all events at clubs, with a few exceptions that basically amount to the ACBL selling red and/or gold points.

Everything earned at a sectional is silver.

Points earned for first or second place in a regional event of two sessions or more with no masterpoint maximum (i.e., no non-LM events) are gold. (This includes placing first or second in your flight or bracket, but not in your strat in stratified pair events: e.g., you get gold for winning BCD in a stratiflighted event (one in which A plays separately), but not for winning B strat in a stratified pairs (i.e., one in which everyone plays together). the easiest way to win gold is to get first or second in your knockout bracket -- it doesn't have to be the top bracket.

Points that are won in a regional event but do not qualify for gold, are red.

All events at a regional, and almost all at an NABC, are "regional events". NABCs also have national events, the special ones to which I was referring in my earlier posts, the ones that pay platinum points.

Points earned on the internet are colorless.

Life mastership requires 300 points total including 50+ black, 50+ silver, 25+ gold, and 50+ (red+gold). I believe a maximum of 50 of the 300 can be colorless.

Point awards are determined by the type of event, the number of entrants, and in some cases the number of entrants in lower events running concurrently. There is a new phenomenon whereby clubs can pay an additional fee in order to offer double masterpoints in their club games -- again, the ACBL is in the business of selling masterpoints these days, so that as many of its members as possible can make LM before they die (which will be soon -- median age of the membership is 68).

Last edited by atakdog; 06-22-2008 at 07:10 PM.
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06-22-2008 , 07:35 PM
For the record, and in keeping with my belief that everyone should play up a good amount of the time:
I will play with any POGger who wants to in any regional or national if I happen to find myself near one with the time to do it. I will play your convention card if I'm moderately familiar with it -- I can play American standard, Bridge World standard, 2/1, CC Wei or modern precision, some canape methods, and a few other odd things. The only limitation is that we enter the biggest event we can. I am a life master, and have plenty of blue ribbon quals.

Actually, the other limitation is that you try hard, but don't take things so seriously that we don't have fun.
I have under 1000 masterpoints so I can enter the lower lower flights of stratiflighted events, but I decline to do that. I also don't much like bracketed KOs unless I'm in a fairly high bracket.

I live in Texas. I travel now and then.

Note: I'm good but not great. I haven't actually sat at a duplicate table in a couple of years. (If we play I expect that many people, including most of the directors, will ask where I've been.) But I promise not to embarrass you (much), and to have the proper attitude: namely, that bridge is an awesome game and winning is just a bonus, albeit one worth striving for.
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06-22-2008 , 07:50 PM
FWIW, the summer NABC is in Vegas from July 17-27. I will be there the 12th-19th for collegiate finals, world junior trials ( which we're going to get destroyed in -- 15th/16th IIRC), and to play some SSNL. If anyone wants to kibbitz, meet for a drink, or play in a midnight session (there are usually midnight swiss events that are pretty fun, fast-paced, and involve booze), let me know. Also, the NABC is a good place to meet Phil Gordon (Bronze Life Master?) if you care about such things.
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06-22-2008 , 10:21 PM
DO we have a good way of organizing games over BBO other than by using AIM? I have AIM, but I'm usually not online (because I have to remember to log in), but I'm often on facebook, sometimes just leaving it open in a tab. Does anyone else have facebook, because (at least for me) it's easier to chat and set up games and stuff.
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06-23-2008 , 05:07 PM
I will be curious what your opinion of them is once you've had a taste of regionals and NABCs, FCBL. (After having been to many of each, I still prefer sectionals to regionals, and will never again set foot in a NABC unless I am being paid to be there. Way too big, too noisy, too expensive. Just like playing in a regional with a 50% markup (and only 24 boards, as of this year!)unless you are there for one of the championship events. I would love to see the NABCs consist *only* of the championship events, but the "bigger is better" mentality set in long before my time.)

As atakdog said, the the knockout awards are ridiculously big; it's a lot more of an achievement to get even a section top in a strong pairs game than to win four coin flips against supposedly equally strong teams. I have this dream that someday, masterpoint awards will actually be related to (prestige of event)*(some objective measure of the difficulty of winning the event), but I know better than to think that'll ever happen.

Getting to play against a Garozzo is a marvelous thing about this game, yes. That could hook anyone on bridge even if they did have to be subjected to the likes of Jade Barrett the same day.
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06-23-2008 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
DO we have a good way of organizing games over BBO other than by using AIM? I have AIM, but I'm usually not online (because I have to remember to log in), but I'm often on facebook, sometimes just leaving it open in a tab. Does anyone else have facebook, because (at least for me) it's easier to chat and set up games and stuff.
I'd be up for a game tonight.
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06-23-2008 , 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
I'd be up for a game tonight.
I could play tonight also...
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06-23-2008 , 09:12 PM
I would like to play with you fine people.

AIM=IronYuppie57
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06-23-2008 , 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegmund
Getting to play against a Garozzo is a marvelous thing about this game, yes. That could hook anyone on bridge even if they did have to be subjected to the likes of Jade Barrett the same day.
One remarkable thing, to me, is that nearly all the world-class players I've encountered at the table are really very pleasant. I'm not someone they know, but with only couple of exceptions they've always been, at the very least, civil, and usually quite nice, whether at the club or in the Reisinger.

Many of my most memorable moments at bridge have taken place while sitting against the greats. Beating them is terrific, but even when I haven't, I've almost always come away happy for the experience.

(Still, beating them is better. I remember... Ah, cue the stories. Never mind -- everyone's bridge stories are more interesting to the teller than the audience, so I'll refrain.)

I won't be joining y'all on BBO for a while -- full time dad duties make an uninterrupted session hard to come by this summer -- but perhaps some day. Meanwhile, have fun.
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06-23-2008 , 09:56 PM
I'm definitely down for playing at some point tonight.

AIM -- Myrmidon73
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06-23-2008 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atakdog
(Still, beating them is better. I remember... Ah, cue the stories. Never mind -- everyone's bridge stories are more interesting to the teller than the audience, so I'll refrain.)
I, for one, would be happy to hear some good bridge stories... If you wouldn't mind indulging, that is.
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